No Bloody Piece of Apron

[caz]

I blame Jack's mother. He probably couldn't go anywhere or do anything without muvva calling out "K.Y.B.O" after him.

"Keep your bowels open, lad. And if you can't open yours, open someone else's."

Thanks Nats. But the only job I'd be good for on the stage is wiping it - preferably not with half an apron already smelling to high heaven.

Love,

Caz
X

[Chava]

I see we are all taking trips into the wide blue yonder, accompanied by human waste and romantic ideals about broken hearts!

The reason your meat doesn't drip blood when you buy it is because it has been hung to mature for a while, and there is little blood left in the tissues. The difference between buying a piece of liver at the butchers and harvesting your own offal from a very recently killed whore is huge. The uterus has a plentiful blood supply even after menopause, and would be dripping quite dramatically. And even a little blood is going to smell dreadful after a while. You have an odd idea of life in the East End in the '80s if you think that the inhabitants were so used to filth that blood-stained garments wouldn't have bothered them. Even the Ripper probably had to interact with other people sometimes. And he would have stunk to high heaven if he'd shoved those organs into his pocket and left them there to drip. Yes, personal hygiene standards were different. But no, people weren't so degraded that they would wear clothes that smelled so bad if it could possibly be avoided. The Ripper was someone who could approach a whore and get her to come with him even at the height of the terror. That doesn't jibe with the idea of some blood-thirsty ghoul shoving bloody pieces of meat in his pocket without a care. Even those poor degraded women would have thought twice about a john with a leer and a very nasty smell about him.

However a little oil-paper parcel--what could be more innocuous? And hygienic!

[perrymason]

I really think this question relates much more to the issue of possible planning than it does the nature of the mess.

If he takes it for carrying organs, one would have to assume that he did not plan ahead for that contingency. If the same man also killed Annie Chapman, it would then be safe to assume he wasn't prepared for taking organs there either, but found a makeshift method that perhaps was less than satisfactory, hence the change to cutting cloth from the corpse. Had he found a satisfactory method for Hanbury, he would have continued it most likely.

The thing is I dont think the killer would go into the situation in Mitre, having gone through similar circumstances in Hanbury, without having something on himself to carry organs away in....assuming that was one of his objectives at both sites, which I personally believe it was.

So...I think the apron piece shows us how he handles things when "s*** happens"....I think his primary take away cloth got used to wipe feces off himself, and he quickly found a substitute piece...a larger size piece of cloth only because he cuts and tears it hastily, and didnt attempt to take only a size that he would need.

If that has any merit....then I think you have to conclude he was probably off the streets from 2-ish until 2:30, 20 to 3 perhaps. If he used the apron piece from Kate to carry organs, and the hanky he brought to carry them was already used to clean himself of feces, then its not likely he would discard the apron section until it was empty, and the organs off his person... if he used cloth to wrap the organs in in the first place, then it suggests he had better ideas than just stuffing bloodied organs into a coat pocket.

Maybe that was a learned behaviour, by mistakes he had made leaving Hanbury.

That train of thought does suggest that the apron section wasnt just discarded when he was near home, it was taken from a safe bolt hole, carried on his person, and left at a location purposefully. I mean, why take it back out at all, if its safe indoors, and he can just trash bin it later or burn it?

I think that leads to closer examination of potential meaning of the message, because I would be inclined to think if the cloth was left somewhere on purpose, he knew its discovery would also reveal a less noticeable note scrawled nearby. One he either wrote himself, or used to misdirect.

Best regards all.

[Observer]

Hi Perry

I don't think you can safely assume that this Ripper killer did anything "off the cuff" when dealing with objectives actually...and I believe the cumulative data, (methodology, sequence, time required, number of superfluous wounds),...shows us that he likely makes the same first three moves each time....choke or throttle to suppress air passages, perhaps until the victim is unconscious, slit their throats deeply and thoroughly...probably partially for blood letting, and next he opens their abdomens. With Polly, Annie and Kate...excluding the real possibility for the moment that he cut Kates face after her throat,..I think its reasonable to conclude that at least one of his objectives, was abdominal organs.

Best regards all.

I agree that the killer had objectives regarding the actual kill.

But lets assume that he did write the Goulston Street message, and that's a big if, are you then suggesting that he left his abode that night, chalk in pocket, in the full knowledge that he would kill a prostitute, tear off a piece of her apron, walk to Goulston Street (or any other street for that matter,) chalk a message, and then in order to link the apron and message leave the torn apron next to a message he had chalked on a wall?

I think not

Observer

[Mitch Rowe]

First off:
We dont really know if JTR took something off Annies body or perhaps something from the backyard as we have no conclusive evidence of what Annie was wearing or had on her at the time. We dont know what was in the yard before Annie and JTR arrive. But my idea is that JTR had at least some kind of light to work with in the backyard and JTR didnt need anything. If he did have blood on his hands he must have wiped the blood from them before leaving the backyard as there are no reports of blood on either front or back doors.

For all we know JTR could have been carrying a gladstone bag with him just like in the myth. I dont know how he transported them and its hard for me to speculate. I do know he must have as they were not found near the bodies.

In my mind Eddowes was not JTRs first choice. It was Stride. It was probably so dark in the corner of Mitre Square JTR cuts the bowels by mistake and then cuts the apron to wipe off the feces. Pure speculation but it seems the logical answer.

I would assume that if JTR simply put the organs in his pocket he would have trouble with the smell and flies buzzing around after a day or two.
All evidence points to the organs as JTRs main focus so JTR planning a means of transporting them is not out of the question. When Richardson brings the tableknife to the inquest it is quickly discarded as the murder weapon so we can assume JTR was prepared with a proper knife to do the job.

I firmly believe that if JTR was able to perform mutilations to Stride or Eddowes the way he wanted to then we would have seen the same technique he used with Annie and MJK.

Soo...Unless some-one performs a practical experiment and proves that JTR must have been a bloody mess after leaving the backyard I am just going to have to assume he wasnt much of a bloody mess. Maybe he was going to use the torn piece of pocket to wipe hands and knife but saw something else to use while cutting/tearing the pocket? That seems a better explanation than simple robbery to me.

The truth however could be as strange as our speculations and I always keep that sort of thing in my mind and try not to conclude anything definate when thinking of these things.

[Sam Flynn]

Experiments that all the family can try:

Take a tangerine and a plum, roll a tea-towel around them, and see if you can stuff the bundle under your jacket without leaving a conspicuous bulge. Try stuffing the bundle in a coat or trouser pocket, and see how fiddly it would be with all that extra "lagging" wrapped around the fruit.

[Robert]

Then try it with a bunch of grapes.

[Observer]

Hi Sam

Who would take notice of a man carrying a small bundle around with him in the early hours of the morning?

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Observer,

Who would take notice of a man carrying a small bundle around with him in the early hours of the morning?

Who - against a backdrop of coarse, dark cloth - would notice the vague stains that a small quantity of blood might produce on a man's clothing?

[Natalie Severn]

My grandmother had a piece of American "oil" cloth.It was a bit of a mystery what it was for,but she said it was "first aid" and I think she had it handed down to her by her mother.In terms of bulk it was no more bulky than a piece of thick flexible plastic----very like that in fact.It was from a whale apparently.I never saw it used but can imagine it would be water proof ----and therefore blood proof.
I think that was a good idea actually, that he carried about with him some of this American cloth ,which itself may have been concealed by newspapers.I reckon he wore a loose sleeved garment and stuffed the American cloth and his knife up the sleeve of his coat.
And I reckon too he had planned on a chalk message that night----but not perhaps quite the one he wrote----since I believe he was interrupted in the case of Stride.

Natalie

[perrymason]

I think suggesting that the killer wouldnt mind some staining and blood in his coat pockets...and that it wouldnt have seeped through and been quite visible, is really just a way of dismissing the apron piece as a cartage item. If this guy was local, he didn't have much or any money, so carelessly ruining perhaps the only coat he has, and must continue to wear daily seems a trifle reckless.

And whether something of Annies was taken to wrap organs in is just pure speculation, as its clear she had no cloth cut from her clothing.

As to the connection with the writing, the killer doesnt need chalk on him unless he planned to write something, and since the apron piece is discarded,.. and if it carried the organs, its probable he wouldnt discard the carry-all unless it was empty, so he could have easily taken some chalk and the apron back out from a location where he leaves the organs.

The apron section is not seen until almost 3am. If you want to believe the Constable just missed seeing it there earlier, thats your business, but personally I dislike conclusions that insist on witness errors. The exception for me in these cases would be obvious liars, like Hutchinson. Bu the arguments like..... Richardson must just have not seen Annie...because investigators thought she should be dead when he is on the steps, ...or Harvey did walk right to the Square entrance from Church Passage, he just didnt see the killer still there...or hear Watkins boots signalling his approach....or Mary did go out, its just that Elizabeth Prater, Sarah Lewis and Mary Ann Cox never saw or heard that happen.

Best regards.

[caz]

Hi Sam,

The point is, what we know beyond doubt (okay, beyond all reasonable doubt, to take account of the "stray dog dropped it there"/"Kate wiped herself with it" theories) is that the murderer was prepared to have about his person a large piece of incontrovertible proof of his latest doings in Mitre Square, and take it with him all the way to Goulston Street, for no other apparent purpose than to do a Lady Macbeth "Out damned spot" number of some sort. It seems to me very much like a flat contradiction in terms - like carrying a corpse over your shoulder to conceal the blood it left on your jacket as you head home.

I agree with you on this business of stains, and don't believe for one moment that the bodily parts he took with him would have bled profusely all the way to Goulston (being ripped out after the fatal throat cut) or produced a stink to rival what was on that apron piece. There was time enough to worry about rotten smells coming from his trophies as they began to reach their use-to-relive-the-thrill-by date. But I don't think it would have been beyond our man, whoever he was, to have set out that night with some kind of pocket liner/receptacle, even if it was just a piece of newspaper, and to have used Kate's clothing at the scene if he had dire need for a quick wipe before leaving.

I'm not even sure a bleeding cut sustained during his knife-wielding antics would have entered his consciousness until he was safely away from the scene and able to take stock - especially if the cut was a sharp one or he had been under the influence of drink or drugs, as was the case with the killer of Sally Anne Bowman here in Croydon. This charmer bit his victim a number of times during a vicious attack, in which three of the knife wounds went right through her body from one side to the other. He also waited after killing her in case anyone had heard the attack, but when no lights came on and all was quiet he returned to the scene and sexually abused her dead body before taking trophies including her mobile phone away with him.

This was also a double event, with his previous victim that night escaping with her life because a taxi drove past and spooked him before he could finish her off. He immediately began looking for another opportunity and found it as Sally got out of her former boyfriend's car (it had been parked and they had been arguing in it for over an hour - for those who think Kidney killed Stride, or that the ripper could not have killed her in the wake of her encounter with BS) and began walking the few yards to her front door. None of the killer's associates had the slightest clue that he had it in him to commit such horrible crimes, which included an indoor rape and knife attack while he was in Australia. He had actually lived in the same street as Sally for a while, so he was familiar with the area. But he didn't live near Croydon at the time of his double event.

Sorry - I went off at a tangent there.

Better than going off in a huff I suppose.

Love,

Caz
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[Chava]

OK, but getting back to Annie, there is a quantity of blood beside her left shoulder near the intestines, and that may have been where he severed the uterus etc. But there really isn't much blood anywhere else. So when he cut that stuff out, he put it somewhere immediately. Which argues that either he didn't care about a really messy smelly pocket in what may have been his only jacket, or he had something with him--and I'm backing 'American' cloth as a good possibility.

[perrymason]

This was also a double event, with his previous victim that night escaping with her life because a taxi drove past and spooked him before he could finish her off.

Sounds like the event you mention was certainly a Double Event Caz.....the one we discuss here is less certain though.

Instead of using Liz's timing this go-round, cause you hate when I do that ...... Ill use the fact that the only known artifact certainly taken by the killer and left elsewhere as evidence of the killer's having committed a murder and carrying the artifact from the victim away with him, implicates the cloth bearer in just a single murder that night.

Only a few translations of the Grafitto, if that was his as well, suggests any reference at all to the Berner St murder, but nothing to implicate himself in that affair. Nor is there any confirmation that he even noticed the earlier murder in his package to Lusk, referring to The so-called Double Event night, ...if indeed Jack did write the note and send the kidney section...which Im inclined to think he did.

Cheers Caz.

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Mike,

I think suggesting that the killer wouldnt mind some staining and blood in his coat pockets... is really just a way of dismissing the apron piece as a cartage item.

It's a way of pointing out that the amount of residual blood left in those organs was not as vast as one might think, and what little that may have penetrated to the outside world wouldn't have been that detectable against the backdrop of the typical menswear of the time. Much less detectable than a layer of steaming excrement lining one's pocket, for example, or coating one's hands.

In terms of using the apron as a cartage item, apart from being hardly necessary from a "stain-proofing" point of view, is that a wrapped half-apron with a kidney and uterus at its core would have made the payload more bulky than necessary.