AC and TOD

[Fisherman]

Off to bed now! I´ll log in tomorrow again, of course...

Fisherman

[Fisherman]

I'm feeling most uncomfortable about this Christer, but I find myself in a degree of agreement with you over this

All the best

Dave

**** happens, Dave. I´m sure we´ll find heaps of things to disagree on in days to come. There is hope!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Having Cadosch hear the "no", and then a bump against the fence, at the same time that a body is lying there in the morning light is hardly convincing.

Cadosch could not specify where the "No" came from. And if we are to believe Long, it was not Chapman at any rate, since she would still have been out in the street. (Of course, if you ask me she was lying dead in the yard).
If something fell against the fence, and if that something was the somewhat heavy-set Annie Chapman, the crash would have been quite loud and Cadosh should perhaps have seen her through the fence, given the distance portrayed inbetween the boards in some contemporary drawings.

We would also need to accept that the Ripper chatted with Chapman before killing her. And if she was the party that said "No!", it´s strange that it took him three minutes to wrestle her down, during which time she kept completely quiet ...?

I find Phillips a lot more convincing than the combined efforts of Long/Cadosch/Richardson. And much more consistent. That´s all. My money is on a TOD of around the time when Lechmere passed on his way to job.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Hunter]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Why do you think Annie died earlier?

When I held this view, it was because I believed that "Jack" was a shrewd and cunning monomaniac.

That's not a very good reason to hold a view on evidence -- then or now.

[Fisherman]

Hello All. If Annie Chapman died before 5.00, why didn't Davis hear someone in the passageway? He was awake from 3.00 until 5.00.

Cheers.
LC

Nobody heard the couple, Lynn. And they DID go through the passage. Just how awake and alert your guy was is anybody´s guess. À la Mulshaw, perhaps?

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

Tod

But first and foremost because the medical evidence is impossible to look away from. An icecold corpse, killed an hour before, with an onsetting rigor? Nah.

I'm feeling most uncomfortable about this Christer, but I find myself in a degree of agreement with you over this

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

Hello again Fisherman,

Please ignore my last, can't find the reference now and have a feeling it was mentioned in a documentary, so probably not true.

Apologies and best wishes,
C4

P.S. If I do find it, I will post the reference, but don't hold your breath, as they say!

You won´t find it! But you may wanna think of what happens if a door closes itself. It will creep into as acute an angle as possible, and in Richardson´s case, if he sat down to his right on the stairs, with his body angled to the right in order to see the padlock, then the door would have crrept right up on him and it would quite possibly have obscured Chapman from view.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Why do you think Annie died earlier?

LC

Because the arguably most experienced medico in errands like these says so.

I take it you would have liked me to answer "because it fits with the Lechmere scenario", and yes, it does. Plus it fits with the general timing of the other weekday killings. Plus it means that the killer did not take the risk of killing in daylight, and leaving the premises with blood on his hands.

But first and foremost because the medical evidence is impossible to look away from. An icecold corpse, killed an hour before, with an onsetting rigor? Nah.

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

He said he lived in the front and that he "came down." Not sure if that was third floor or not.

In her inquest evidence, Amelia Richardson states that Davies and his wife occupied the third floor front-room

I assume this to mean what left-ponders would refer to as the fourth floor

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman,

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that the door was like a stable door, it could be opened top and bottom separately. If this was so, and he just opened the top half to glance at the cellar, perhaps he could have missed seeing Annie.

Best wishes,
C4

Nope. It was not a parted door.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer.
It also goes without saying that your source, R N Karmaker, was not talking about a body which had been eviscerated.

The first medical man to arrive at a murder scene, even in 1888, should have taken the ambient temperature and the core body temperature. In the case of an evisceration it would be the brain or the buttocks/thigh muscles.
None of these medical men make references to this on their arrival at any of the crime scenes.

Any value of a comparison between the Eddowes murder and the Chapman murder is compromised by the fact the opinions came from different doctors.
Had Phillips given an opinion on the body temperature of Eddowes, we could then at least a degree of reliability compare his words on both cases.

The situation is that we cannot assume the opinions of these men differed to any great degree based soley on their brief comments.

I cannot imagine that Chapman was actually quite warm, but Phillips missed it, Jon...! Of course there is room for suspecting some sort of discrepancies, but Phillips did not say an hour and a half, did he? He said two-three hours at the very least. The possibilities and options do not overlap - not at all. And no matter how off Phillips may have been, it still remains that he DID judge the body quite cold (apart from a small portion of it), he DID see an onsetting rigor and he did find undigested food.

I find it a bit too much to claim that the comparison Chapman/Eddowes would be compromised by diffrent doctors making the judgements. These men were specialists (albeit not on eviscerated bodies), and they had vast experience and knowledge. And Chapman was quite cold, Eddowes was quite warm - once again the overlap is not there.

All the best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

In donde esta?

Hello Velma. Thanks.

He said he lived in the front and that he "came down." Not sure if that was third floor or not.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

Cadosch

Hello Jon.

"Having Cadosch hear the "no", and then a bump against the fence, at the same time that a body is lying there in the morning light is hardly convincing."

Precisely. If Annie was killed before 5.00, one needs give an account of Cadosch.

Cheers.
LC

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dig

Check out:-

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

All the best

Dave

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo all.

Does anyone know, off the top of their heads, what the temp was the morning Chapman was murdered and the temp the morning Eddowes was murdered?