AC and TOD

[lynn cates]

exception

Hello (again) Christer.

Glad you found that exception.

And rigor mortis can have onset in as little as ten minutes.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Take it back

Hello again Fisherman,

Please ignore my last, can't find the reference now and have a feeling it was mentioned in a documentary, so probably not true.

Apologies and best wishes,
C4

P.S. If I do find it, I will post the reference, but don't hold your breath, as they say!

[lynn cates]

Davis

Hello All. If Annie Chapman died before 5.00, why didn't Davis hear someone in the passageway? He was awake from 3.00 until 5.00.

Cheers.
LC

[Wickerman]

Having Cadosch hear the "no", and then a bump against the fence, at the same time that a body is lying there in the morning light is hardly convincing.

[Chris]

Fisherman

I really think you have to look at some numbers in order to evaluate Phillips's estimate.

[curious]

Hello All. If Annie Chapman died before 5.00, why didn't Davis hear someone in the passageway? He was awake from 3.00 until 5.00.

Cheers.
LC

Hi, Lynn,
Wasn't Davis 56? Who knows how good his hearing was, plus, he was on the third floor.

Since people moving about in the house was apparently something that happened all the time, would he have even paid any attention or noticed it?

curious

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo all.

Does anyone know, off the top of their heads, what the temp was the morning Chapman was murdered and the temp the morning Eddowes was murdered?

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Dig

Check out:-

http://www.casebook.org/victorian_london/weather.html

All the best

Dave

[lynn cates]

Cadosch

Hello Jon.

"Having Cadosch hear the "no", and then a bump against the fence, at the same time that a body is lying there in the morning light is hardly convincing."

Precisely. If Annie was killed before 5.00, one needs give an account of Cadosch.

Cheers.
LC

[lynn cates]

In donde esta?

Hello Velma. Thanks.

He said he lived in the front and that he "came down." Not sure if that was third floor or not.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer.
It also goes without saying that your source, R N Karmaker, was not talking about a body which had been eviscerated.

The first medical man to arrive at a murder scene, even in 1888, should have taken the ambient temperature and the core body temperature. In the case of an evisceration it would be the brain or the buttocks/thigh muscles.
None of these medical men make references to this on their arrival at any of the crime scenes.

Any value of a comparison between the Eddowes murder and the Chapman murder is compromised by the fact the opinions came from different doctors.
Had Phillips given an opinion on the body temperature of Eddowes, we could then at least a degree of reliability compare his words on both cases.

The situation is that we cannot assume the opinions of these men differed to any great degree based soley on their brief comments.

I cannot imagine that Chapman was actually quite warm, but Phillips missed it, Jon...! Of course there is room for suspecting some sort of discrepancies, but Phillips did not say an hour and a half, did he? He said two-three hours at the very least. The possibilities and options do not overlap - not at all. And no matter how off Phillips may have been, it still remains that he DID judge the body quite cold (apart from a small portion of it), he DID see an onsetting rigor and he did find undigested food.

I find it a bit too much to claim that the comparison Chapman/Eddowes would be compromised by diffrent doctors making the judgements. These men were specialists (albeit not on eviscerated bodies), and they had vast experience and knowledge. And Chapman was quite cold, Eddowes was quite warm - once again the overlap is not there.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Fisherman,

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember reading that the door was like a stable door, it could be opened top and bottom separately. If this was so, and he just opened the top half to glance at the cellar, perhaps he could have missed seeing Annie.

Best wishes,
C4

Nope. It was not a parted door.

The best,
Fisherman

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Lynn

He said he lived in the front and that he "came down." Not sure if that was third floor or not.

In her inquest evidence, Amelia Richardson states that Davies and his wife occupied the third floor front-room

I assume this to mean what left-ponders would refer to as the fourth floor

All the best

Dave

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Why do you think Annie died earlier?

LC

Because the arguably most experienced medico in errands like these says so.

I take it you would have liked me to answer "because it fits with the Lechmere scenario", and yes, it does. Plus it fits with the general timing of the other weekday killings. Plus it means that the killer did not take the risk of killing in daylight, and leaving the premises with blood on his hands.

But first and foremost because the medical evidence is impossible to look away from. An icecold corpse, killed an hour before, with an onsetting rigor? Nah.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello again Fisherman,

Please ignore my last, can't find the reference now and have a feeling it was mentioned in a documentary, so probably not true.

Apologies and best wishes,
C4

P.S. If I do find it, I will post the reference, but don't hold your breath, as they say!

You wonīt find it! But you may wanna think of what happens if a door closes itself. It will creep into as acute an angle as possible, and in Richardsonīs case, if he sat down to his right on the stairs, with his body angled to the right in order to see the padlock, then the door would have crrept right up on him and it would quite possibly have obscured Chapman from view.

The best,
Fisherman