AC and TOD

[lynn cates]

opportunity knocks

Hello DLDW. I think that #3 is PRECISELY what had happened--at least in Annie's mind.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Yes cold is cold. But there was warmth yet--as you yourself admit. Let's let Bagster be Bagster.

I am all for letting Bagster be Bagster. But the truth of the matter is that he could not detect any warmth at all but for in the area mentioned, under the intestines. There - and ONLY there - was there a little warmth. The rest of the body was totally cold.
Bagster did not need to say that, by the way - it says itself.

And a body that was totally cold everywhere but for in a small portion of the abdomen where a little warmth remained, is a body that has been dead for at the very least two hours. That was what Phillips said, and that was what he stood by.

You erroneously interpret him as having opened up for a chilling off time of an hour only, allowing for Chapman to have been killed 5.30, but Phillips did never do that.

So itīs your version ...

(Phillips told the coroner that he was sure that Chapman had been dead for at least two hours, only to retract this in the next sentence and open up for her having been dead only an hour or even less).

That would make Bagster Phillips look a complete idiot, of course, but you seem to buy this anyway.

... against my version ...

(Phillips was sure that two hours was the absolute minimum she had been dead, and he stated that the time was probably more like three hours or even longer, but he was not willling to put his reputation on the line by saying that she must have been dead for such a long time, since he felt that the chill in the wind and the extensive mutilation may have meant that she could have gone as cold as she had in two hours only).

That would make him look like a discerning medico, giving a minimum of time of two hours that had passed as a time he would be able to put his reputation on line for, but not being willing to say that she MUST have been dead longer - only that he THOUGHT that this was the case.

Quite a battle? No. Sadly (for you) and luckily (for me), I have the evidence that goes to show that I am right and you are wrong. Itīs in the post I started out with, post 100:

"... from the Echo, September 19th:

"Dr. G.B. Phillips, the divisional surgeon, has had another consultation with the police authorities respecting certain theories advanced. There are three points upon which there is agreement - that Annie Chapman was lying dead in the yard at 29 Hanbury street, when John Richardson sat on the steps to cut a piece of leather from his boot, his failure to notice the deceased being explained by the fact that the yard door, when opened, obstructed his view; that the poor creature was murdered in the yard, and not in a house, as had been at one time suggested; and that the person who committed the deed was a man with some knowledge of human or animal anatomy."

This is a week after Phillips witnessed and gave his estimations as to the time of death."

Now, Lynn, if the good doctor had accepted that Chapman could well have died at 5.30, then what business does he have consulting with the police and agreeing that Richardson must have missed Chapmans dead body as he sat on that step?

I thought he had agreed that he could have been wrong on the TOD? That he had had a total change of heart in front of the coroner?

Richardson was in place at around 4.45. That means that he was there one hour and fortyfive minutes before Phillips! The same Phillips, that is, that you claim was willing to accept 5.30 as the TOD.

Here, however, we can see that he has no intention at all to accept one hour and fortyfive minutes! It falls within Phillips no-no stretch of time during which he KNEW that Chapman MUST have been dead. 4.45 was as impossible as 5.30. Phillips would have nothing of it.

And the police agreed with him! Swanson, in a report from the 19:th of October: "He (Phillips) was called and saw the body at 6.20 (sic), and he then gives as his opinion that death occurred two hours earlier, viz: 4.20 a.m. Hence the evidence of Mrs Long which appeared to be so important to the Coroner, must be looked upon with some amount of doubt, which is to be regretted."

Guess who he supports; the coroner or Phillips? Correct - Phillips, which tallies well with the article I qouted.

From the same report: "... it is difficult to understand how it was that Richardson did not see the body when he went into the yard at 4.45 a.m. ..."

Note that Swanson does not say that it is difficult to understand how he could have missed the body - he says it is difficult to understand how it was that he did, since he knows it was there, courtesy of Phillips.

Thatīs Swansons view, Lynn: Long is not to be trusted and Richardson missed the body. What these two parameters mean for Cadosch and his testimony is something I will leave for you to suss out.

Make no mistake: just like the Echo article from the 19:th says, the police and Phillips were in total accordance that Chapman was dead before Richardson saw her and that Longīs and Cadosches testimony were useless red herrings.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Thanks in part to Wynne Baxter, much about Bagster Phillips is misunderstood.

You can say that again, Cris!

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

The Times were on the right track as early as the 14:th, by the way:

"Dr Phillipīs positive opinion that the woman had been dead quite two hours when he first saw the body at half-past 6, throws serious doubt upon the accuracy of at least two important witnesses, and adds to the prevailing confusion."

Phillips was thus positive, just like I say. He was dead certain of the two hours, he suspected three or more could be the true time, but he was willing to concede the point that this latter suggestion could have been taking it too long, due to the possible impact of the cold weather and the extensive mutilation.

But he was positive - positive! - that Chapman could not have been dead for less than two hours.

I am no medico, so I cannot say how well grounded this stance of his was. But I CAN say that we have evidence that goes to show that he would not budge a single second on the two hour estimation!

The best,
Fisherman

PS: The two witnesses mentioned will be Long and Cadosch. Not Richardson.

[Fisherman]

Thanks fish
We will just have to disagree then. I just don't see how all three could be wrong.

If you take a look at my post above to Lynn, you will see that the police had no trouble accepting that both Long and Cadosch were wrong. They believed Richardson, though, when it came to his visit to the yard - they simply thought he had missed the body.

So if you think Swansonīs judgement is anything to go by, you are welcome to join the TOWKTADE club - The Ones Who Know That Annie Died Earlier. As of the moment, itīs Wolf Vanderlinden, me, Swanson, Phillips and you. If you sign up, that is!

Otherwise itīs the Baxter Boys for you...

The best,
Fisherman

[moonbegger]

G'day Fish

They believed Richardson, though, when it came to his visit to the yard - they simply thought he had missed the body.

Easily done , even if he did take a peek into the yard !

moonbegger

[Fisherman]

G'day Fish



Easily done , even if he did take a peek into the yard !

moonbegger

Agreed - and I bet it all was due to that door, that swung back on you when opening it. After that, itīs all about angles!

the best,
Fisherman

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Hunter. Good to see another Tennessean around these here parts.

I doubt she would have been concerned with that. These women usually didn't think that far ahead. If she'd made any money, she would have spent it.

The other options may be possible.

I'm not sure I'd put any money on that. Chapman was ill. If she'd been unsuccessful she may have tried to get the next nights money. Rest the day, then get a room early. Kinda a I'm all ready at it I can just rest up later thing. What's a couple more hours if I can rest the whole day and night. I would imagine if drink and food were not the primary concerns then lodgings was number one.

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. I think that #3 is PRECISELY what had happened--at least in Annie's mind.

Cheers.
LC

I've been thinking about this a little. So Chapman is on the street looking for punters. She is unsuccessful, presumably, until much later??? Now, if the backyard at #29 is used for 'business' then perhaps she went there eventually to try her luck at a 'known' location. Something does not gel in my mind with her going there to sleep. Maybe being exhausted and unable to carry on works better maybe. It being safer to sleep in the day and she prob wouldn't have been able to remain down much longer as people were stirring. Anyways, she is successful at some point and then goes in the backyard and meets her fate.

[lynn cates]

translation

Hello Christer. Thanks.

I take the liberty of translating your post.

"For reasons that God alone knows, I have decided to back Lechmere. And now I need an earlier TOD."

Voila.

Look at Baxter's summary. It comes AFTER "The Echo," testimonies, the whole thing.

Bagster said he might be mistaken. He put it on the table.

You, however, wish it off.

Cheers,
LC

[lynn cates]

passageway

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Actually, I think she intended to sleep in the passageway.

Cheers.
LC

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Hello DLDW. Thanks.

Actually, I think she intended to sleep in the passageway.

Cheers.
LC

Then she really wouldn't have been able to stay down much longer. I imagine she would've been run off rather quickly after being discovered

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo Lynn.

Would you provide me a brief timeline of your proposed order of events?

[Bridewell]

Anyone who wants to argue that what Cadosch heard was a packing case falling against the fence needs to have an explanation as to what became of the packing case - because it wasn't there when Chapman's body was found.

[Cogidubnus]

Hi Colin

As an alternative source of sound, wasn't there a manufactory in the back yard of number 33? Possibly the source of some early morning horseplay overheard by a none-too-curious man with far more pressing issues on his mind?

All the best

Dave