AC and TOD

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

No, it looks the same to me as well.

Did not Phillips stick to his codicil about temperature, etc?

Perhaps the police saw things differently.

Cheers.
LC

I think the police kept the possibility very much open that Richardson simply missed Chapman...

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

same

Hello Christer. Thanks.

No, it looks the same to me as well.

Did not Phillips stick to his codicil about temperature, etc?

Perhaps the police saw things differently.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Hello Fish,

No, we can't say for certain, but she was ill. If it was TB her temperature would certainly have been up. Wasn't saying that she cooled down in a matter of minutes, just wondering whether the fact that she had a fever would affect her cooling down time - speed it up a little (Mpembas effect) or slow it down.

Best wishes,
C4

Well, let´s not forget the effect of chilly conditions on rigor mortis in this context - it slows it down.
And I am not certain that TBC patients have a constant fever - though I´m no doctor, so I´d need expertise to straighten that one out.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Are you suggesting that Baxter brought up Phillips's ruminations about wrong TOD, knowing that he now had reassessed his TOD back to the original--if, indeed he did that?

Cheers.
LC

As far as I can tell, Baxter is saying the same thing the whole time - that Phillips said that he opted for two, three hours, but offered space for the chilly night having had some impact.
If you have any special wording or detail in mind, I´d appreciate if you came clear on it.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Cooling

Yes, fever may cause very quick rigor mortis, that is true. A matter of minutes may suffice. What it does not do, however, is to turn the body cold in that same time! A dead body will normally start to stiffen after 2-3 hours, and it will first be limp but warm up till that stiffening begins, whereupon it will be stiff and warm for between 3-8 hours. After that stiff and cold applies, until rigor mortis tapers off.
When Phillips saw Chapman first the whole body was quite cold, apart from a little rest heat in the stomach area.
This is consistent, not with a quick fever rigor, but instead with her having been dead for a couple of hours.

Plus, of course, the onsetting rigor Phillips felt was ALSO consistent with a TOD two, three hours before he saw her. We cannot treat her as a certain case of fever, can we?

The best,
Fisherman

Hello Fish,

No, we can't say for certain, but she was ill. If it was TB her temperature would certainly have been up. Wasn't saying that she cooled down in a matter of minutes, just wondering whether the fact that she had a fever would affect her cooling down time - speed it up a little (Mpembas effect) or slow it down.

Best wishes,
C4

[lynn cates]

suggestion

Hello Christer. Thanks.

Are you suggesting that Baxter brought up Phillips's ruminations about wrong TOD, knowing that he now had reassessed his TOD back to the original--if, indeed he did that?

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Yes, fever may cause very quick rigor mortis, that is true. A matter of minutes may suffice. What it does not do, however, is to turn the body cold in that same time! A dead body will normally start to stiffen after 2-3 hours, and it will first be limp but warm up till that stiffening begins, whereupon it will be stiff and warm for between 3-8 hours. After that stiff and cold applies, until rigor mortis tapers off.
When Phillips saw Chapman first the whole body was quite cold, apart from a little rest heat in the stomach area.
This is consistent, not with a quick fever rigor, but instead with her having been dead for a couple of hours.

Plus, of course, the onsetting rigor Phillips felt was ALSO consistent with a TOD two, three hours before he saw her. We cannot treat her as a certain case of fever, can we?

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

Learning curve

Had to look that up. It's early in the morning to be learnin'. How dare you?! Kidding aside, don't see why it couldn't but also not sure why would it either??? Seems a possible explanation at first read. Thanks, I learned something today, so I'm done till tomrow

Hallo Dig,

To be honest I didn't know that it was called that until I looked it up. First heard of it years ago while watching an ice-hockey match outside in minus 20C and my coffee froze in an instant when I put it down. My ex then said it was due to hot liquids cooling faster than cold but had to check whether it was a myth or not.

If Annie's original body temp was high(er), it might apply.

Best wishes,
C4

[Digalittledeeperwatson]

Hullo C4.

Hello again,

In other words, would the Mpemba effect apply to the human body?

???

C4

Had to look that up. It's early in the morning to be learnin'. How dare you?! Kidding aside, don't see why it couldn't but also not sure why would it either??? Seems a possible explanation at first read. Thanks, I learned something today, so I'm done till tomrow

[Fisherman]

Hello Christer. Thanks.

That's a fair enough point, but Baxter and Bagster are, again, back pedaling on the 26th--a week AFTER "The Echo" article.

Cheers.
LC

Baxter is back pedaling, Lynn, noone else. And Baxter belongs not to either the police or the medico side, the two parts mentioned by the Echo. Whatever back pedaling there is on account of Phillips, is done for him by the good coroner. And he only repeats what Phillips spoke of a week EARLIER than the Echo article.
We all know that Baxter had a mind of his own. But he does only say that IF the witnesses were correct, then Phillips was wrong. I would imagine that it works the other way around too. But I would not count it as forwards pedaling on account on Phillips, since he was not speaking at the inquest on the 26:th.

The best,
Fisherman

[curious4]

In other words

Hello again,

In other words, would the Mpemba effect apply to the human body?

???

C4

[lynn cates]

back pedaling

Hello Christer. Thanks.

That's a fair enough point, but Baxter and Bagster are, again, back pedaling on the 26th--a week AFTER "The Echo" article.

Cheers.
LC

[curious4]

Annie

Hello Dig, Dave and Fish

Quite agree - it's the puzzles that keep us going. Not feeling my brightest with yet another cold, but read this on my favourite autopsy site, thought it was interesting. "Never assume that the body temperature is normal at the time of death.". Annie was definitely ill, quite possibly running a fever. How would this affect the doctor's estimate of time of death? I wonder.

All good wishes,

C4

[Fisherman]

Hello Chister.

"But if the police arrived at the conclusion that Phillips was right on the TOD. . ."

But what did Baxter conclude about TOD and what was Phillips's eventual codicil?

Cheers.
LC

Baxter, if you forgive me, was not there on the morning of Chapmans death. He did not make any of the tests that Phillips did. He was not a medico. He was a coroner, and he accepted that the woman Long saw was Chapman, just as he accepted Richardsons words. Having done that, he had painted himself into a corner.
Phillips gave some leeway, since he had never seen a body so extensively mutilated. He said that this could have quickened the cooling off of the body. But all of this went down around a week EARLIER than the Echo article that tells us that Phillips had reconvened with the police whereupon it had been agreed that Richardson must had missed Chapman.
During that week, I think Phillips would have had ample time to consult his fellow colleagues and discuss the matter, which may have resulted in him becoming firmly convinced that Chapman must have been dead already when Richardson went into the yard, leaving two possible explanations:
Richardson did not tell the truth, or Chapman was in the yard, hidden from sight by the door.
Of course, this explanation would effectively take Cadosh and Long out of the picture too.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

Baxter and Bagster

Hello Chister.

"But if the police arrived at the conclusion that Phillips was right on the TOD. . ."

But what did Baxter conclude about TOD and what was Phillips's eventual codicil?

Cheers.
LC