Two knives, two people?

[Losmandris]

I seemed to have halted the discussions with my previous post, my hope is that is because people are considering the ramifications of what I suggested. The order of the knife usage tells us that the last stab using the larger weapon was intended as a final gesture. If the killer who stabs 37 times with a pen knife also uses that larger blade...how come only 1 stab? And why would he use it last?

I think its clear that the pen knife stabber was venting, he stabs her all over her midsection, no one stab intended to inflict mortal injury. He's angry. The last stab seems clear in its intent, to end her life with one fatal stab. Does that seem compatible with someone who is in the throes of an angry moment?

Not at all. Was there any indication from the postmortem that Martha fought back against her killer? Surely if she is not killed by the 37 stab wounds, she would be doing a lot of kicking and screaming? Scraps on here knuckles or bloody finger nails at least?

Tristan

[Yabs]

Not at all. Was there any indication from the postmortem that Martha fought back against her killer? Surely if she is not killed by the 37 stab wounds, she would be doing a lot of kicking and screaming? Scraps on here knuckles or bloody finger nails at least?

Tristan

Her hands were tightly clenched and resting by her sides so it would appear that there was no struggle. No mention of defensive wounds to her haunds. (At least none that I’ve ever read)
She did however have 9 or 10 stab wounds to her neck so if they were inflicted first that may account for any lack of screaming

[Michael W Richards]

Her hands were tightly clenched and resting by her sides so it would appear that there was no struggle. No mention of defensive wounds to her haunds. (At least none that I’ve ever read)
She did however have 9 or 10 stab wounds to her neck so if they were inflicted first that may account for any lack of screaming

The clenching should be an indicator of how she physically reacted to the attack, and the stabs might have been made in such close quarters that her hands couldn't be used. He may well have leaned on her while stabbing her for all we know.

[Yabs]

The clenching should be an indicator of how she physically reacted to the attack, and the stabs might have been made in such close quarters that her hands couldn't be used. He may well have leaned on her while stabbing her for all we know.

Good point Michael

[Losmandris]

The clenching should be an indicator of how she physically reacted to the attack, and the stabs might have been made in such close quarters that her hands couldn't be used. He may well have leaned on her while stabbing her for all we know.

Could she have been asleep as some people have speculated?

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

Could she have been asleep as some people have speculated?

Tristan

I don't see that myself Tristan, but that line of thinking would be hard to reconcile with the catalyst for the stabs in the first place. Someone comes across a sleeping street woman and just begins to stab her relentlessly? Why? That guy would have been noticed,... that obviously sick a person would have been noticed by someone before. I think something happened during a services transaction that angered a drunk soldier out partying on Bank Holiday, and in a drunken fit, he reacts to whatever the situation was with fury. She may well have died because she uttered "its so tiny dearie..." to a drunk man, one prone to violence even when sober.

Murder can take place for the stupidest of reasons sometimes, wrong place, wrong time, wrong reaction, misunderstandings,...its the rapid escalation shown that indicates the emotion in Martha case. The second larger weapon is what wraps the soldiers idea together...use of something like short sword or bayonet. Just like the ones that could be legally worn in the street by soldiers on Bank Holidays.

[Abby Normal]

Could she have been asleep as some people have speculated?

Tristan

absolutely. maybe after her fling with the soldier. and if this is indeed the rippers first kill it could have been an unplanned trigger attack.

[Michael W Richards]

You need a trigger for a "trigger" event, how does a sleeping woman incite that event? She wasnt sleeping, she was awake making someone angry. Someone likely very drunk. Hmm...a prostitute doing or saying something to anger someone very drunk she agreed to have sex with for money...one doesnt need to be a psychic to imagine some situations.

[APerno]

If he is a psychopath on the hunt he does not need a trigger just a victim.

[Sam Flynn]

I'd say that someone who inflicted 39 vicious stab wounds had likely been triggered by something more than a snore.

[Losmandris]

If he is a psychopath on the hunt he does not need a trigger just a victim.

I tend to agree. Someone sleeping presents an easy target as there is no need to have any interaction with them. Who knows the murderer could have accosted multiple potential victims that night, all a 'no go' due to unforeseen circumstances. He is then walking around in a heightened state of anxiety or rage, unable to approach anyone else, so he takes it all out on a sleeping/prone victim. Not impossible to imagine.

Tristan

[Michael W Richards]

If he is a psychopath on the hunt he does not need a trigger just a victim.

Why does Marthas killer have to be a psychopath at all? Rage explains the number of stabs, booze might explain that lack of moral compass, compassion or self control.

[APerno]

Why does Marthas killer have to be a psychopath at all? Rage explains the number of stabs, booze might explain that lack of moral compass, compassion or self control.

Yes, that is possible. My reply says that it is possible for the killer to be a psychopath and therefore she could have been asleep.

I was replying to a post suggesting she could not have been asleep because then she could not have caused, in her killer, the necessary rage.

I am not saying she was, only that she could have been asleep; if she crosses paths with a psychopath she doesn't need to cause rage.

But I agree, she could also have seriously pissed someone off and it cost her everything; as someone above said, whores can do that.

It was the other guy who was speaking absolutes, not me. I was just reminding everyone the possibility of an unmotivated psychopathic killer still stands, and that Tabram being asleep is still on the table.

[Michael W Richards]

The pen knife serial psycho would be worth study on its own APerno , but I don't think we need to construct something just because its somewhere within the known parameters. Its why I don't subscribe to a Canonical Group belief system based on the reason its within the realm of possibilities. Im more interested in what probable.

[Losmandris]

Yes, that is possible. My reply says that it is possible for the killer to be a psychopath and therefore she could have been asleep.

I was replying to a post suggesting she could not have been asleep because then she could not have caused, in her killer, the necessary rage.

I am not saying she was, only that she could have been asleep; if she crosses paths with a psychopath she doesn't need to cause rage.

But I agree, she could also have seriously pissed someone off and it cost her everything; as someone above said, whores can do that.

It was the other guy who was speaking absolutes, not me. I was just reminding everyone the possibility of an unmotivated psychopathic killer still stands, and that Tabram being asleep is still on the table.

If the murderer of MT was Jack the Ripper he was clearly able to keep his rage under control at least when approaching the next of his victims. It's not like any of them were pounced upon out of the dark. The rage came out once they were subdued, like a sleeping MT????

Tristan