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  • #61
    Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

    I think it certainly explains why there were no screams reported, especially if the stab to the heart was the first wound inflicted.

    Tristan
    That is categorically ruled out.
    Michael Richards

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Harry D View Post
      Errata made a good argument that it might not have been two knives, but the angle of the final blow might have given the false impression of a second murder weapon. Wish I could find it.
      I have many knives in my collection, modern and antique, and no pen knife Ive ever seen can make a wound that resembles a bayonet stab.
      Michael Richards

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      • #63
        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
        How about if you add a soldier that I fought with and defended.. with my life, as he did with me... when in battle. Hell yes, that's why I said what I said, you obviously aren't aware of how deep many soldiers bonds go. Its merciful ending the suffering of someone who Im sure looked like they may be dying, and its the loyalty that would make him help his comrade. He may not have liked doing it...but that's not the point.
        The trouble is Michael this wasn't the Somme or war torn Europe in 1944. I understand what you are saying that some soldiers may have covered for a friend if they thought a war crime had been committed against the enemy. But this was a poor defenceless woman just out to make a couple of pence for a bed for the night in peacetime London. What you are suggesting is akin to why Anderson came in for such criticism in his biography about certain Jews covering the crime of murder for another Jew. Because murder on Martha is what it was and the other soldier using his bayonet to finish a defenceless woman off is an accomplice in murder, much worse than covering up suspicions or giving them an alibi.
        Regards Darryl

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Darryl Kenyon View Post

          The trouble is Michael this wasn't the Somme or war torn Europe in 1944. I understand what you are saying that some soldiers may have covered for a friend if they thought a war crime had been committed against the enemy. But this was a poor defenceless woman just out to make a couple of pence for a bed for the night in peacetime London. What you are suggesting is akin to why Anderson came in for such criticism in his biography about certain Jews covering the crime of murder for another Jew. Because murder on Martha is what it was and the other soldier using his bayonet to finish a defenceless woman off is an accomplice in murder, much worse than covering up suspicions or giving them an alibi.
          Regards Darryl
          I think the context is what makes this plausible Darryl. It was a soldiers weapon that delivered a single final blow. The victim may have bled to death from the injuries she already had, but who can be sure? No point in continuing to stab her with a pen knife...that boat had sailed, so, if she survives my mate almost certainly spends the rest of his life in jail. Maybe me too, as a perceived accomplice. How is a self serving yet merciful murder beyond comprehension here?
          Michael Richards

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
            How about if you add a soldier that I fought with and defended.. with my life, as he did with me... when in battle. Hell yes, that's why I said what I said, you obviously aren't aware of how deep many soldiers bonds go. Its merciful ending the suffering of someone who Im sure looked like they may be dying, and its the loyalty that would make him help his comrade. He may not have liked doing it...but that's not the point.
            Please tell me you don't live in Canada (and you no longer have access to weapons) because your admission that you would commit murder if one of your friends was doing it is truly frightening. Like...should I be alerting the authorities here?

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            • #66
              Hi.
              Is it not possible that in the case of Martha. she was stabbed in a frenzy by Pearly Poll in a fit of temper, it has hallmarks of a outburst killing.
              Regards Richard.

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
                Hi.
                Is it not possible that in the case of Martha. she was stabbed in a frenzy by Pearly Poll in a fit of temper, it has hallmarks of a outburst killing.
                Regards Richard.
                We first need to find a reason for Poll to accompany Martha to a shady landing in Wentworth Dwellings, and then we need to explain why she'd be carrying two vicious knives. We also need a motive for her to turn homicidal on someone who, to all appearances, was a friend and drinking-buddy. None of this seems very likely to me.
                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by TheCuriousCat View Post

                  Please tell me you don't live in Canada (and you no longer have access to weapons) because your admission that you would commit murder if one of your friends was doing it is truly frightening. Like...should I be alerting the authorities here?
                  You needn't fret Curious, to imagine what its like in someones shoes isn't too difficult for me, and seeing other perspectives does help when you are studying these kinds of acts. For your comfort, Im not a soldier, only know one friend of mine who has a son that is, so this exercise is trying to put someone elses morality, ethics, compassion, into the equation. What I describe is not uncommon, the specific scenario I applied it to takes it to an extreme, sure, but Im also sure that basic behavior still exists within high stress situations. The bond between men in these kinds of roles is tangible, and in some cases Im sure supersedes their relationship with their family. And to address where these bonds may have formed, Ill suggest the tribal wars in India mid-19th century, where many British soldiers got their first taste of madness. And where the weapons most often seen in action were those of large, bladed, instruments.

                  I think its a huge mistake imaging that you can try and figure out what seem to be acts of madness with just your own sensibilities...unless of course you are someone like you described. I can imagine quite well, but proving my concepts validity is another thing.
                  Michael Richards

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                    We first need to find a reason for Poll to accompany Martha to a shady landing in Wentworth Dwellings, and then we need to explain why she'd be carrying two vicious knives. We also need a motive for her to turn homicidal on someone who, to all appearances, was a friend and drinking-buddy. None of this seems very likely to me.
                    Hi Gareth

                    They both may have taken shelter there, because of the disturbances in George Street that night/ morning.

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                    • #70
                      Hi Sam,
                      Back in my youth , I went out for a drinking session , with a mate, and for no apparent reason he turned on me, and beat the daylights out of me, he was sincerely sorry afterwards very remorseful. so it can happen.
                      As for Poll having a knife on her, she may have carried a clasp knife for protection,
                      The longer blade might not have been used at all.
                      All speculation, but stranger things have happened.
                      Regards Richard.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
                        Hi Sam,
                        Back in my youth , I went out for a drinking session , with a mate, and for no apparent reason he turned on me, and beat the daylights out of me, he was sincerely sorry afterwards very remorseful. so it can happen.
                        As for Poll having a knife on her, she may have carried a clasp knife for protection,
                        The longer blade might not have been used at all.
                        All speculation, but stranger things have happened.
                        Regards Richard.
                        If this had been the case, surely the police would have got it out of her?

                        Tristan

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Hi Tristan.
                          Why would they pressure her in that line of questioning?
                          She said that they were in the company of two soldiers, but they were never traced.
                          Regards Richard.

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by richardnunweek View Post
                            Hi Tristan.
                            Why would they pressure her in that line of questioning?
                            She said that they were in the company of two soldiers, but they were never traced.
                            Regards Richard.
                            True. To me, she seemed all rather melodramatic and more of an attention seeker, rather than anything else. I think that there is a good chance that she made everything up and probably was not with Martha on the night in question.

                            From another perspective if this was a bust up between friends would they have stabbed them in the privates area? Of course it's possible but to me this always suggested a sexual element to the crime and at least in a small was a link to MT being a victim of JtR.

                            Tristan

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                              He wanted to cut out their abdominal organs, so what else could he realistically do?
                              lift their skirts-like he did with Tabram. and it shows a desire to expose that part of the body the ripper was interested in.
                              "Is all that we see or seem
                              but a dream within a dream?"

                              -Edgar Allan Poe


                              "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                              quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                              -Frederick G. Abberline

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                                How about if you add a soldier that I fought with and defended.. with my life, as he did with me... when in battle. Hell yes, that's why I said what I said, you obviously aren't aware of how deep many soldiers bonds go. Its merciful ending the suffering of someone who Im sure looked like they may be dying, and its the loyalty that would make him help his comrade. He may not have liked doing it...but that's not the point.
                                uh-no. the normal reaction would be WTF?!? are you doing?? and skidaddle out of there.
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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