Two knives, two people?

[Darryl Kenyon]

The stomach is very much in the upper abdomen, directly under the sternum and partially behind the ribs, and Tabram sustained several other stabs to the chest and neck, with only one wound in the lower abdomen. The focus of her knife wounds was overwhelmingly the upper part of her body, and all 38 of those were stabs.

I take your point Sam but we could argue that the ripper was getting more confident as he progressed. IE Stabs to rips to organ removal. It could be argued that Polly wounds were different from Annie's for instance.
If I where a killer and attacked a woman with a knife with the intent of murdering her and especially if it was my first kill I think I would aim for the heart area with a knife but as I progressed I would perhaps, especially if piquerism was my goal explore other areas particularly the sexual organs as I got more confident. I think we can see that with the ripper.
Regards Darryl

[Darryl Kenyon]

If a solider waiting for his buddy who was off with a girl, decides to go and see whats keeping him, and finds him over a slumped woman which he has been stabbing over and over again, he sees she is gravely injured but not yet dead,...might that "buddy" draw his large blade and finish the girl off to save her more suffering and protect his buddy from being identified by the woman should she survive the many smaller wounds?

We know that a soldier was waiting for his buddy in that area under those circumstances...that should be enough to entertain this kind of scenario here, in conjunction with Polls story. We do have 2 weapons, and the large one being used only once and last, through the breastbone,...if the pen knife stabber also had that larger knife, why would he only use it when he had exhausted himself from stabbing her all over?

If your best friend had savagely attacked another woman and you found him slumped over her with a knife in his hand.Would you join in or ask what the hell he was doing, shout murder, or basically run for it. I doubt I would do the first option especially considering he had been talking to a bobby earlier and he would have undoubtedly have gone to the gallows if caught.
Regards Darryl

[Sam Flynn]

f it was my first kill I think I would aim for the heart area with a knife but as I progressed I would perhaps, especially if piquerism was my goal explore other areas particularly the sexual organs as I got more confident

As I'm a stickler for etymology, I really don't like the way that "piquerism" has become generalised from stabbing ('cos that's what "piquer" means) to include cutting. To me, they're markedly different things, and conflating them under the same umbrella term has allowed the boundaries to become artificially blurred.

As to confidence, anyone capable of going "whump! whump! whump!" to a total of 39 times on a defenceless woman in a public stairwell must have been pretty confident already.

[Joshua Rogan]

Could there be some truth in the tale that she was killed by a solider then?

The thing I still have trouble with is why not just use the bigger knife in the first place?

Not my theory, but one has been suggested as follows;

After drinking with the two soldiers, Poll took the Corporal up Angel Alley, and Tabram went off to the stairwell with the Private. While waiting for his friend to reappear, Cpl is questioned by a PC. He then goes in search of Pte, and finds him over a woman with 38 smallish stab wounds. Drawing his bayonet (according to the papers only Corprals and Sergeants are allowed to carry their sidearms in public) he administers the coup-de-grace.

All of which fits the sightings and physical evidence, but I think from memory that the tinings are all over the place.


Edit: I see Michael has beaten me to it.

[Abby Normal]

On the anniversary of the anniversary of the murder of Martha Tabram, I still wonder about whether she was a victim of Jack the ripper. The fact that two knives were used in her murder has always concerned me? If she was a JTR victim why would one person use two knives? Surely the two different types of stab wounds indicate that two people were involved?

What do you think?

Tristan

no. One person, two knives (if indeed two knives were used-Im not so sure).

I see a narrative that goes like this:

the ripper was accustomed to carrying a smaller knife with him all the time.

He encounters Millwood-attacks her with smaller knife.

realizes the smaller knife isn't big enough.

Brings bigger knife also next time out.

Encounters Tabram and in the heat of the moment uses the smaller knife first, then switches to bigger knife.

next time out (Nichols) just uses bigger knife.

[Abby Normal]

,i dont think Martha T was a jack the ripper victim at all . Ludicrous that she is even thought of in the same breath as the others.

What, apart from the location, the timing, the victimology, the strangulation, the attack with a knife to her torso, I can't think of anything either.

Regards Darryl

lol. Bingo-and skirt raised

[Sam Flynn]

and skirt raised

We definitely know that Tabram was a prostitute, and what do prostitutes (and/or their clients) tend to do with their skirts?

[Yabs]

Perhaps the smaller knife was Martha’s.

She may have drawn it on her eventual killer for some reason.
He got it off her and attacked her with it, then used his own to finish her off.

[Abby Normal]

We definitely know that Tabram was a prostitute, and what do prostitutes (and/or their clients) tend to do with their skirts?

its well known they didn't lie down to have sex. so raising them while standing to have intercourse dosnt work because as soon as the attack started she would let go of the skirt and it would fall back down.

and what does the ripper do to the skirts? raise them to expose the abdomen/privates once theyre on the ground.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps the smaller knife was Martha’s.

She may have drawn it on her eventual killer for some reason.
He got it off her and attacked her with it, then used his own to finish her off.

interesting. never thought of that before.. certainly seems possible.

[Herlock Sholmes]

If a solider waiting for his buddy who was off with a girl, decides to go and see whats keeping him, and finds him over a slumped woman which he has been stabbing over and over again, he sees she is gravely injured but not yet dead,...might that "buddy" draw his large blade and finish the girl off to save her more suffering and protect his buddy from being identified by the woman should she survive the many smaller wounds?

We know that a soldier was waiting for his buddy in that area under those circumstances...that should be enough to entertain this kind of scenario here, in conjunction with Polls story. We do have 2 weapons, and the large one being used only once and last, through the breastbone,...if the pen knife stabber also had that larger knife, why would he only use it when he had exhausted himself from stabbing her all over?

Point taken Michael.

[Sam Flynn]

its well known they didn't lie down to have sex.

It's well known that they often didn't, but that doesn't make it axiomatic that this was always the case. That aside, there are more mundane possibilities we might consider before we read any "ripperesque" significance into a raised skirt.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Perhaps the smaller knife was Martha’s.

She may have drawn it on her eventual killer for some reason.
He got it off her and attacked her with it, then used his own to finish her off.

Ditto with what Abby said. Certainly a possibility

[Joshua Rogan]

its well known they didn't lie down to have sex. so raising them while standing to have intercourse dosnt work because as soon as the attack started she would let go of the skirt and it would fall back down.

PC Barratt

"The clothes were turned up as far as the centre of the body, leaving the lower part of the body exposed; the legs were open, and altogether her position was such as to at once suggest in my mind that recent intimacy had taken place."

[Abby Normal]

PC Barratt

"The clothes were turned up as far as the centre of the body, leaving the lower part of the body exposed; the legs were open, and altogether her position was such as to at once suggest in my mind that recent intimacy had taken place."

thats some serious rough sex