The Tumblety Challenge

[mklhawley]

Greetings all,

This is less of a challenge and more of a serious question specific to Scotland Yard considering Francis Tumblety as a JTR suspect.

Here’s the question: Does anyone have any knowledge of a Scotland Yard official denying Francis Tumblety as being a Whitechapel murder suspect? –In 1888 or even years later.

I’ve looked everywhere, but I cannot find any. We of course have record of the contrary when Chief Inspector Littlechild commented to Simms about Tumbley (a comment which originated not from Simms but from Littlechild himself) in 1913. Keep in mind, this thread does not involve WHO the actual killer was but merely was Tumblety considered a suspect by Scotland Yard at the peak of the investigation in November 1888 just after the Mary Kelly murder.

Beginning on November 18, 1888, major US newspapers were reporting that Scotland Yard considered Francis Tumblety as a suspect. Note an example of this in the New York Times, Nov 19, 1888, “The Dr. Tumblety who was arrested in London a few days ago on suspicion of complicity in the Whitechapel murders…” If this statement is true, then Tumblety must have been considered AT LEAST a significant suspect since an arrest suggests there was significant evidence implicating him. It logically follows that insignificant suspects would merely be taken in for questioning and not arrested.


Let’s say the US reporters received bad information or misinterpreted the cable, thus causing the statement to be wrong. In either case, would the next logical step not have been for London correspondents of these major US papers - especially the New York papers- to do face to face interviews with Scotland Yard officials about Tumblety? Go to the source. Scotland Yard was reported to be the source of this story, since they did the arrest. The fact that the US papers reported details of the arrest, such as the gross indecency charge and jumping bail, clearly suggests the London correspondents WERE asking questions to Scotland Yard officials.

…which leads me to this question. Since Scotland Yard had the opportunity to clarify that Tumblety was not a suspect, then why did they not do it?

Sincerely,
Mike

[Jonathan H]

To Mike

Dr Tumblety was the dominant police suspect of 1888, in my opinion.

Ex-Chief Inspector of C.I.D, Tom Divall, one of Mac’s protégés, produced the colorfully titled memoirs, 'Scoundrels and Scallywags and Some
Honest Men' in 1929.

In it he wrote this:

"The much lamented and late Commissioner of the C.I.D., Sir Melville Macnaghten, received some information that the murderer had gone to
America and died in a lunatic asylum there. This perhaps may be correct, but after this news nothing was ever heard of any similar crime being committed."

This is from p. 231 of 'The Lodger' by Evans and Gainey, one of the great book ever written on this subject.

This is a scrambled egg by Sirr Melville Macnaghten, one which Jack Littlechild, I think, was trying to unscramble in 1913 by teasing out the 'Dr T' elements from the alleged chief suspect of Sims: 'Dr D.'

[Trevor Marriott]

To Mike

Dr Tumblety was the dominant police suspect of 1888, in my opinion.

Ex-Chief Inspector of C.I.D, Tom Divall, one of Mac’s protégés, produced the colorfully titled memoirs, 'Scoundrels and Scallywags and Some
Honest Men' in 1929.

In it he wrote this:

"The much lamented and late Commissioner of the C.I.D., Sir Melville Macnaghten, received some information that the murderer had gone to
America and died in a lunatic asylum there. This perhaps may be correct, but after this news nothing was ever heard of any similar crime being committed."

This is from p. 231 of 'The Lodger' by Evans and Gainey, one of the great book ever written on this subject.

This is a scrambled egg by Sirr Melville Macnaghten, one which Jack Littlechild, I think, was trying to unscramble in 1913 by teasing out the 'Dr T' elements from the alleged chief suspect of Sims: 'Dr D.'

Here we go again another post quoting from the memoirs of a retired policeman another attempt to prop up another floundering suspect. Well i can tell you from "private information" I have received Tumblety is 100% burnt toast and in the bin forever.

[mklhawley]

Here we go again another post quoting from the memoirs of a retired policeman another attempt to prop up another floundering suspect. Well i can tell you from "private information" I have received Tumblety is 100% burnt toast and in the bin forever.

That's why I know you have your head up your &%%. This thread is about Scotland Yard considering Tumblety as a suspect and not Tumblety being the killer. ...and I also know about that private information... Don't feel too special anymore, eh.

[mklhawley]

To Mike

Dr Tumblety was the dominant police suspect of 1888, in my opinion.

Ex-Chief Inspector of C.I.D, Tom Divall, one of Mac’s protégés, produced the colorfully titled memoirs, 'Scoundrels and Scallywags and Some
Honest Men' in 1929.

In it he wrote this:

"The much lamented and late Commissioner of the C.I.D., Sir Melville Macnaghten, received some information that the murderer had gone to
America and died in a lunatic asylum there. This perhaps may be correct, but after this news nothing was ever heard of any similar crime being committed."

This is from p. 231 of 'The Lodger' by Evans and Gainey, one of the great book ever written on this subject.

This is a scrambled egg by Sirr Melville Macnaghten, one which Jack Littlechild, I think, was trying to unscramble in 1913 by teasing out the 'Dr T' elements from the alleged chief suspect of Sims: 'Dr D.'

I just read your article Jonathan. Brilliant! People are beginning to discover your dept of knowledge and understanding on the subject.

Sincerely,
Mike

[Jonathan H]

Thanks

To Mike

Thank-you very much for your kind words. That's high praise indeed!

What I am trying to do is apply a theory, a working hypothesis, to a set of fragments which, seemingly, do not fit together.

The theory tries to show how they can fit together.

But a source may turn up this afternoon which shows that the theory cannot accomdate it, and this will undermine the whole super-structure immediately.

I compare it to that trick of balancing spinning plates atop long thin poles. The more you put up, the more you have to rush back to the first set and start them spinning again.

I believe that you can argue for Chapman via Abberline, or Tumblety via Littlechild, or 'Kosminski' via Anderson/Swanson or Druitt via Macnaghten, but that the strength of each competing argument can, to some extent, be measured by how you deal with the other top cops and their alternate chief suspects.

Cheers Jonathan

[Trevor Marriott]

That's why I know you have your head up your &%%. This thread is about Scotland Yard considering Tumblety as a suspect and not Tumblety being the killer. ...and I also know about that private information... Don't feel too special anymore, eh.

Well if I do as you say have my head up my a-----. Its still not as far up as yours is up Jonathans. At least I can still see and function sensibly.

Please free to enlighten the ripper world on my private information you seem to know about I am sure they would be most grateful and intrigued.

[lynn cates]

essence

Hello Jonathan.

"What I am trying to do is apply a theory, a working hypothesis, to a set of fragments which, seemingly, do not fit together. "

I think this captures the essence of Ripper studies in general.

Cheers.
LC

[mklhawley]

Please free to enlighten the ripper world on my private information you seem to know about I am sure they would be most grateful and intrigued.

Trying to steal someone else's thunder again Trevor? Simon says, have the courtesy and wait for them to present it.

Besides, this is a red herring. You haven't answered my original question (because I know you cannot). Does anyone have any knowledge of a Scotland Yard official denying Francis Tumblety as being a Whitechapel murder suspect? –In 1888 or even years later.

[The Good Michael]

There are many who didn't come out and say he was a suspect. That means it wasn't advertised much. We can infer from that, that he's no more likely than anyone else. In fact, of those suspects who were refuted, by mere fact of refutation, they were more well-known and hence the denials.

Mike

[Trevor Marriott]

Trying to steal someone else's thunder again Trevor? Simon says, have the courtesy and wait for them to present it.

Besides, this is a red herring. You haven't answered my original question (because I know you cannot). Does anyone have any knowledge of a Scotland Yard official denying Francis Tumblety as being a Whitechapel murder suspect? –In 1888 or even years later.

Well seeing as you are all mouth and trousers and cant cut the mustard its best you wait a little longer.

[mklhawley]

There are many who didn't come out and say he was a suspect. That means it wasn't advertised much. We can infer from that, that he's no more likely than anyone else. In fact, of those suspects who were refuted, by mere fact of refutation, they were more well-known and hence the denials.

Mike

Thanks Mike,

It certainly was advertised much in the US once he jumped bail, and it is quite logical for Scotland Yard not to advertise their interest in him prior to his arrest (Why show your cards and screw up a future arrest?). Besides, it was policy not to discuss this with the press, BUT as in the case of Leather Apron, once he was considered NOT a suspect, the press being informed was not a big issue.

How many of the other 380-plus JTR suspects brought in for questioning had a Chief Inspector later state in a private letter that they were a significant suspect? ...and if Tumblety was a minor suspect amonst the hundreds, how did Littlechild not only pull Tumblety's name out of a hat but also clearly recall his homosexuality and hatred of women?

Sincerely,

Mike

[c.d.]

How many of the other 380-plus JTR suspects brought in for questioning had a Chief Inspector later state in a private letter that they were a significant suspect? ...and if Tumblety was a minor suspect amonst the hundreds, how did Littlechild not only pull Tumblety's name out of a hat but also clearly recall his homosexuality and hatred of women?

Sincerely,

Mike[/QUOTE]

I would venture to guess that even among the 380 suspects that Tumblety stood out like a sore thumb.

c.d.

[mklhawley]

How many of the other 380-plus JTR suspects brought in for questioning had a Chief Inspector later state in a private letter that they were a significant suspect? ...and if Tumblety was a minor suspect amonst the hundreds, how did Littlechild not only pull Tumblety's name out of a hat but also clearly recall his homosexuality and hatred of women?

Sincerely,

Mike

I would venture to guess that even among the 380 suspects that Tumblety stood out like a sore thumb.

c.d.[/QUOTE]

Hi c.d.,

That is definately true for someone seeing Dr. T at a branch office or at Marlborough Street Court, but Littlechild was in the Whitehall crystal palace. It would be interesting to find out if he did see Tumblety face-to-face, though.

[mklhawley]

Well seeing as you are all mouth and trousers and cant cut the mustard its best you wait a little longer.

You know Trevor, I thoroughly enjoy when someone presents a case for a new suspect, such as you with Feigenabum, but because of your bedside manner, I love when Paul rips holes in it.