The Jack the Ripper Mystery is Finally Solved — Scientifically

[Mike J. G.]

Hi Mike,

George can speak for himself, of course, but I think you might be confusing two different issues, so George has by no means contradicted himself.

There is no doubt from Bond's report that the heart was missing from Kelly's chest--that it had been removed from its sheath and was absent.

The 'debate' George was referring to is whether the heart was also missing from the room...but that has no bearing on the surgical observations he is making.

As for the heart missing entirely, this is a different issue, but I agree with George. Bond lists the location of organs (under the head, by the feet, etc) but does not tell us where the heart was found, which seems like a very curious omission if it was still in the room. But as I say, this is beside the point he is making.

Fair enough, RJ.

But I'm still at a loss to figure out why it is being promoted here that the killer had to have medical knowledge. Bond certainly didn't think so, yet he's being used here to promote that very idea.

[Mike J. G.]

As Herlock has already pointed out, Bond, whom is being used here to promote the idea that only a skilled person with medical knowledge could have performed the mutilations on Kelly, evidently didn't agree.

Dr. Thomas Bond:

8. In each case the mutilation was inflicted by a person who had no scientific nor anatomical knowledge. In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.


10. The murderer must have been a man of physical strength and of great coolness and daring. There is no evidence that he had an accomplice. He must in my opinion be a man subject to periodical attacks of Homicidal and erotic mania. The character of the mutilations indicate that the man may be in a condition sexually, that may be called satyriasis. It is of course possible that the Homicidal impulse may have developed from a revengeful or brooding condition of the mind, or that Religious Mania may have been the original disease, but I do not think either hypothesis is likely. The murderer in external appearance is quite likely to be a quiet inoffensive looking man probably middleaged and neatly and respectably dressed. I think he must be in the habit of wearing a cloak or overcoat or he could hardly have escaped notice in the streets if the blood on his hands or clothes were visible.

Was Thompson a man of physical strength?

[rjpalmer]

Hi, George,

In another thread you posted this:

"There has been much debate as to whether he (Bond) meant that the heart was absent from the body or from the room, but I believe he (Bond) was saying that the heart had been surgically removed from the sheath (the pericardium) in which it had been contained."

If this is just something you personally believe, and there's no actual evidence to confirm that it's true, then I'm not sure why it's being promoted as actual evidence in this thread.

There's no confirmation that the mutilations on Kelly could only have been performed by a trained professional or someone with medical knowledge. It literally has never been proven. If it were proven, we'd be able to discount a lot of suspects, but it hasn't, so we can't.

Am I wrong here?

Hi Mike,

George can speak for himself, of course, but I think you might be confusing two different issues, so George has by no means contradicted himself.

There is no doubt from Bond's report that the heart was missing from Kelly's chest--that it had been removed from its sheath and was absent.

The 'debate' George was referring to is whether the heart was also missing from the room...but that has no bearing on the surgical observations he is making.

As for the heart missing entirely, this is a different issue, but I agree with George. Bond lists the location of organs (under the head, by the feet, etc) but does not tell us where the heart was found, which seems like a very curious omission if it was still in the room. But as I say, this is beside the point he is making.

[GBinOz]

That the often frail, gentle Thompson hacked Kelly to pieces doesn’t come close to adding up. Thompson was no murderer George. He doesn’t come close to being a murderer as everyone that knew him would have attested. You should read Walsh’s biography of him if you haven’t already.

Thompson was a drug addict. You might care to read his poem "The Nightmare of the Witch Babies" to get an idea of the workings of his mind and his fantasy of the noble knight ridding the world of demon-ridden witches:

http://www.dxsuperpremium.com/2012/05/poem-of-day-nightmare-of-witch-babies.html

[GBinOz]

I agree Mike. I suspect that we would be surprised at what knowledge or skill someone can acquire under the right circumstances or even if they set out to acquire it. I don’t have any medical knowledge but I’ve often wondered if luck might also have played some part? What I mean by that is I wonder what the result would have been if the killer had tried doing the same organ removal under the same adverse conditions ten times on different nights. Might it have been the case that say twice or three times the organ was removed intact but on the other seven or eight times it was damaged? After all the killer cut out Eddowes uterus but left a piece.

Hi Herlock,

Theoretical knowledge is one thing. Putting into practice another. I suspect if you were tasked with inflicting the injuries visited upon Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly you might find yourself passed out along side of the body. I know I would be. The killer might have left a piece of the uterus, but he didn't damage the bladder which can not be assured even under the best current medical procedures.

Cheers, George

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock,

Realistically, in how many disputes are there absolutely proven facts, agreed to by every expert? We are not talking about anatomical knowledge or knife skills. We are pointing to dissection procedures. The mobilisation of the small intestines was a procedure used in the dissection rooms, as was the deviation of the incision around the navel. Is it your contention that Bury knew these procedures? The surgical removal of the heart proper from the enclosing pericardium was a medical procedure known by few students. Was Bury one of them? No! These were procedures employed by someone very familiar with the dissecting room. If not Thompson, someone like him, but certainly not someone like Bury.

Cheers, George

Hello George,

Dr Bond performed the post mortem:

“In my opinion he does not even possess the technical knowledge of a butcher or horse slaughterer or any person accustomed to cut up dead animals.”

It’s ok using terms like “the mobilisation of the intestines” and “the deviation of the incision around the navel” but Bond doesn’t use these phrases and how can we assume that the killer was thinking in those terms. It’s like the average person making half a dozen chess moves without knowing that he was using the so and so variation of the so and so opening? He just moved the pieces. People on here with the medical knowledge that I don’t possess have also seen no skill in the killers work in Miller’s Court. That the often frail, gentle Thompson hacked Kelly to pieces doesn’t come close to adding up. Thompson was no murderer George. He doesn’t come close to being a murderer as everyone that knew him would have attested. You should read Walsh’s biography of him if you haven’t already.

Bury was a murderer, Thompson wasn’t.
Bury categorically mutilated a woman after killing her, Thompson never did.
Bury had attacked a woman with a knife, we have no evidence of Thompson ever doing so.
Bury was definitely in the area at the time, we can’t definitely place Thompson there.

Bury the ripper is a possibility, Thompson the ripper is a creation.

[Mike J. G.]

Hi, George,

In another thread you posted this:

"There has been much debate as to whether he (Bond) meant that the heart was absent from the body or from the room, but I believe he (Bond) was saying that the heart had been surgically removed from the sheath (the pericardium) in which it had been contained."

If this is just something you personally believe, and there's no actual evidence to confirm that it's true, then I'm not sure why it's being promoted as actual evidence in this thread.

There's no confirmation that the mutilations on Kelly could only have been performed by a trained professional or someone with medical knowledge. It literally has never been proven. If it were proven, we'd be able to discount a lot of suspects, but it hasn't, so we can't.

Am I wrong here?

[GBinOz]

Hi, George. This thread has nothing to do with Bury, and I've mentioned a few times I'm not here promoting Bury. You could pretty much replace the hypothetical Bury with any other suspect and I'd still agree that they could have done what was seen on Kelly.

Can you post a link to the evidence which details and confirms your description of the procedure supposedly performed on Kelly? I'm going to assume that it's genuinely been confirmed that what you're saying is correct, so if you can point me in the right direction, I'll read it.

Cheers

Hi Mike,

Read the post mortem report for Kelly. It says "the pericardium was opened from below and the heart was absent". So the enclosing sheath was in place but the heart had been removed from below - via the abdominal cavity. The heart proper was surgically incised from its enclosing sheath - not a slash and grab.

Cheers, George

[GBinOz]

True enough but we’ve seen on here how opinion from the medical experts on the ripper’s possible medical or anatomical knowledge varies. There appears to be no consensus so we shouldn’t assume that he did or didn’t or rather as to what level of knowledge or skill. If it was an absolutely proven fact, agreed to by every medical expert that we could ask, then yes, on that aspect Thompson’s would score higher than Bury; it still wouldn’t make him a particularly strong suspect though. That said, as we don’t have exhaustive biographies of most suspects, so we don’t know if any given suspect might have acquired some anatomical knowledge or knife skills at some point. Many of the poor took work where they could and often moved between different types of work so how can we be certain that someone didn’t spend time working in a slaughterhouse for example?

So, if we park this disputed area for a while, and examine Thompson and Bury then I’d find it strange if anyone could rate Thompson above Bury for very obvious reasons.

Hi Herlock,

Realistically, in how many disputes are there absolutely proven facts, agreed to by every expert? We are not talking about anatomical knowledge or knife skills. We are pointing to dissection procedures. The mobilisation of the small intestines was a procedure used in the dissection rooms, as was the deviation of the incision around the right side (never the left) of the navel. Is it your contention that Bury knew these procedures? The surgical removal of the heart proper from the enclosing pericardium was a medical procedure known by few students. Was Bury one of them? No! These were procedures employed by someone very familiar with the dissecting room. If not Thompson, someone like him, but certainly not someone like Bury.

Cheers, George

[Mike J. G.]

I agree Mike. I suspect that we would be surprised at what knowledge or skill someone can acquire under the right circumstances or even if they set out to acquire it. I don’t have any medical knowledge but I’ve often wondered if luck might also have played some part? What I mean by that is I wonder what the result would have been if the killer had tried doing the same organ removal under the same adverse conditions ten times on different nights. Might it have been the case that say twice or three times the organ was removed intact but on the other seven or eight times it was damaged? After all the killer cut out Eddowes uterus but left a piece.

Exactly, Herlock. I'm genuinely perplexed at where people are pulling these supposed facts about medical knowledge from. I've read of no evidence which confirms that Kelly was mutilated by someone with said knowledge, and I'd have thought that if such evidence existed then that would all but confirm that the killer did indeed have such knowledge.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Ed Gein had no medical knowledge, either, but he took apart and then dressed two women like a deer in his shed.

There's scores of evidence of average Joes cutting people up. The internet is rife with footage of cartels flaying and disemboweling rival gang members without issue.

The idea that Kelly was murdered by someone with medical knowledge is not founded in any real evidence.

I agree Mike. I suspect that we would be surprised at what knowledge or skill someone can acquire under the right circumstances or even if they set out to acquire it. I don’t have any medical knowledge but I’ve often wondered if luck might also have played some part? What I mean by that is I wonder what the result would have been if the killer had tried doing the same organ removal under the same adverse conditions ten times on different nights. Might it have been the case that say twice or three times the organ was removed intact but on the other seven or eight times it was damaged? After all the killer cut out Eddowes uterus but left a piece.

[Mike J. G.]

Hi Mike,

You use the example of South American gangs cutting rivals up and removing their hearts, and I can see that you may observe an equivalency with the likes of Bury hacking out the heart of Kelly....except that is not what happened.

Kelly's heart was not hacked out - it was accessed via her abdominal cavity. No problem. Bury emptied her abdominal cavity, reached under her ribs and cut out her heart in a slash and grab procedure....except that is not what happened.

Her heart was surgically removed from the fibrous sheath called the pericardium that enclosed the heart, leaving the pericardium in place. This was a medical procedure rarely taught by Virchow, who had Thompson as a pupil. Regardless of how sick and perverted Bury may have been, he did not have the technical knowledge or skill to have achieved this procedure.

Cheers, George

Hi, George. This thread has nothing to do with Bury, and I've mentioned a few times I'm not here promoting Bury. You could pretty much replace the hypothetical Bury with any other suspect and I'd still agree that they could have done what was seen on Kelly.

Can you post a link to the evidence which details and confirms your description of the procedure supposedly performed on Kelly? I'm going to assume that it's genuinely been confirmed that what you're saying is correct, so if you can point me in the right direction, I'll read it.

Cheers

[Herlock Sholmes]

Gull wasnt a surgeon but a Physician with a vast degree of medical knowledge , Bury was Neither . In the spirit of fairness we talking about Thompson v Bury as who is a better suspect .

True enough but we’ve seen on here how opinion from the medical experts on the ripper’s possible medical or anatomical knowledge varies. There appears to be no consensus so we shouldn’t assume that he did or didn’t or rather as to what level of knowledge or skill. If it was an absolutely proven fact, agreed to by every medical expert that we could ask, then yes, on that aspect Thompson’s would score higher than Bury; it still wouldn’t make him a particularly strong suspect though. That said, as we don’t have exhaustive biographies of most suspects, so we don’t know if any given suspect might have acquired some anatomical knowledge or knife skills at some point. Many of the poor took work where they could and often moved between different types of work so how can we be certain that someone didn’t spend time working in a slaughterhouse for example?

So, if we park this disputed area for a while, and examine Thompson and Bury then I’d find it strange if anyone could rate Thompson above Bury for very obvious reasons.

[GBinOz]

I'm always a bit baffled when people talk about medical knowledge and how some people, like Thompson, would have been able to remove Kelly's heart with ease and people, such as Bury, wouldn't have.

I'm not suggesting that anyone need to have this knowledge, as it's pretty grim, but I do find it a little naive that people discount the fact that we have ample evidence, for instance, of South American gangs cutting rivals up and removing their hearts and heads and all manner of things, on camera, without any issues. Literally going into the chest with a knife and removing a heart in seconds.

The medical knowledge of the Ripper is in doubt. Frankly, I don't see anything in the medical reports that would indicate that the killer was a trained medical professional as opposed to merely being a person who had some experience cutting people up.

I'm not here to argue for Bury, and while I think he's a good suspect, I've no fixed suspect at all and I tend to believe he's not been named. But I don't understand the narrative that an average Joe couldn't have done these murders. You'd be surprised what sick and perverted people can accomplish.

Unless we start assuming that the likes of Isis and the South American drug cartels are all medically trained professionals who just happened to leave the trade in favour of extremism and criminal activity.

Hi Mike,

You use the example of South American gangs cutting rivals up and removing their hearts, and I can see that you may observe an equivalency with the likes of Bury hacking out the heart of Kelly....except that is not what happened.

Kelly's heart was not hacked out - it was accessed via her abdominal cavity. No problem. Bury emptied her abdominal cavity, reached under her ribs and cut out her heart in a slash and grab procedure....except that is not what happened.

Her heart was surgically removed from the fibrous sheath called the pericardium that enclosed the heart, leaving the pericardium in place. This was a medical procedure rarely taught by Virchow, who had Thompson as a pupil. Regardless of how sick and perverted Bury may have been, he did not have the technical knowledge or skill to have achieved this procedure.

Cheers, George

[John Wheat]

However the facts of Mary Kellys murder suggest he wasnt her killer . Therefor a poor suspect in relation to Thompson

Name these supposed facts please?