What basis is there for a conspiracy theory?

[JeffHamm]

That's what I was getting at in the first place, obviously.
I didn't just mix up the names!

But I couldn't let it pass, it was just too much! ha ha

[Michael W Richards]

Ok, back on the treadmill...….the conspiracies that may or may not have existed are very easy to understand once one takes into account the variables in that are at that time in history. For example, wondering whether the very prominent discrepancies in events and timings reported by witnesses in the Berner St murder could suggest that times were constructed by some witnesses more intimately involved in the clubs operations, and reliant on its income, based on an appearance and presumption of innocence in Strides murder. Why? Obviously because it was to protect the club, which then protects the income they received from it.

Both Louis and Morris, people as I mentioned who were receiving regular income from the club, had no corroboration for their stories. Not even Lave, who said he was by the gates at 12:40, saw Eagle, and Fanny, who was at her door continuously from 12:50 until 1, didn't see Louis arrive. Louis statement indicates that he was certain he arrived at 1, yet Fanny is proof he didn't. Eagle says he arrived at 12:40, yet Lave is oblivious to that even while standing right where Eagle is arriving. Spooner, Heschberg, Gillen and Issac Kozebrodski all said that they were alerted to the body at around 12:40-12:45. Morris says no-one was in the passage at that time, as does Lave, and Israel says that he saw an altercation with the soon to be victim outside the gates on the street, with someone watching from across the street. Louis says the passageway was empty at 1am.

No one saw Louis arrive at 1 even though Fanny would have had to have seen him. No-one saw Israel, BSM, Pipeman and Liz on the street after 12:35 let alone at 12:45, even with the young couple in the immediate area and Fanny just inside while her front door is ajar. Brown saw the young couple, so did Fanny. So....whose stories cannot be reconciled with the others?

Louis. Morris, Lave and Israel.....club steward, club speaker, passageway cottage dweller, and friend of Woolf Wess. All intimately connected to the club, with one unknown connection in Israel Schwartz. But since he says he was there at that time, and he knew Wess, its safe to assume he attended that meeting. He most surely wasn't checking to see if his wife had completed a move begun early that afternoon...and I submit the move may have been from a cottage in the passageway.

All the stories that do not match are club people. People who relied on the income or the accommodations from it. People who would be aware just how precarious a position the anarchist club had with local police and the neighbors. There are club members stories that do match, but they are members, they don't receive money or lodgings from the club, ergo, they had no impetus to create any false impressions about what they saw and did, and when.

That's a simple easy to comprehend reason for falsified statements, and a conspiracy among a few people to protect the club and by extension, themselves.

[Abby Normal]

Ooooo, but if you take the Bionic Woman's name, Jamie Summers, and replace Steve with Jamie, you get Jamie Austin, and Austin is in Texas, and they grow olives in Texas, which gives us Jamie Olives, a code for Jamie Oliver! Clearly, he has the knife skills, and I always thought he was older than he looks.

- Jeff

lol too funny

[Fiver]

Nichols and Chapman were certainly killed by someone who met them posing as a client while they solicited, with the intention of mutilating them after he double cuts their throats. In Chapmans case it was stated his ultimate goal was what he took. Tabram was stabbed, not cut into or up, and with 2 weapons indicating 2 killers, Stride had a single cut without any evidence her killer wanted more. Kate is a possible fit with the first 2, and Mary definitely doesn't fit with any of the patterns exhibited by the killer we can be sure killed at least Polly and Annie. So youre only telling us that you accept the Canonical Group premise, maybe plus one. Since that's the take for most everyone in Ripperology...so, not new. It would be so refreshing to see new people here question what is obviously unproven that to accept it.

Apparently you missed that the majority of my posts have been questioning what is unproven, including your theories.

I did make a serious error in the post you replied to. I meant to say: Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes seem to be definite victims of this killer, with Tabram as a possible, and Stride and Kelly as probables.

Tabram was stabbed, with two weapons indicating two killers or one killer with two weapons. Both possibiliities seem improbable, but one must be true. It seems more unlikely that two men would both try to inflict that amount of stabbing, so one killer seems more likely. There are differences between her killing and those of the others, but also similarities. That could mean a separate killer or it could mean a first killing by the Ripper, who advanced to cutting open his later victims. Thus I rate Tabram as a possible.

Stride was killed in a similar manner to the other victims, but not mutilated. That could mean another killer, or it could mean the Ripper was interrupted, as he appears to have been with Chapman. Consensus at the time seems to have been that Stride was a Ripper victim, so I rate her a probable.

Kelly was killed indoors, a significant change from the Rippers previous killings, but the method of killing and organ removals match. Consensus at the time also seems to have been that Kelly was a Ripper victim, so I rate her a probable.

Which means I would have no problems with reasonable theories about there being other killers for Stride and/or Kelly. I won't just blindly accept those theories, either, though.

I also would be open to the possibility of other attacks pre-dating Nichols might be the Ripper working himself up his later levels of violence, though I am unaware of any that would match that.

[Abby Normal]

Apparently you missed that the majority of my posts have been questioning what is unproven, including your theories.

I did make a serious error in the post you replied to. I meant to say: Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes seem to be definite victims of this killer, with Tabram as a possible, and Stride and Kelly as probables.

Tabram was stabbed, with two weapons indicating two killers or one killer with two weapons. Both possibiliities seem improbable, but one must be true. It seems more unlikely that two men would both try to inflict that amount of stabbing, so one killer seems more likely. There are differences between her killing and those of the others, but also similarities. That could mean a separate killer or it could mean a first killing by the Ripper, who advanced to cutting open his later victims. Thus I rate Tabram as a possible.

Stride was killed in a similar manner to the other victims, but not mutilated. That could mean another killer, or it could mean the Ripper was interrupted, as he appears to have been with Chapman. Consensus at the time seems to have been that Stride was a Ripper victim, so I rate her a probable.

Kelly was killed indoors, a significant change from the Rippers previous killings, but the method of killing and organ removals match. Consensus at the time also seems to have been that Kelly was a Ripper victim, so I rate her a probable.

Which means I would have no problems with reasonable theories about there being other killers for Stride and/or Kelly. I won't just blindly accept those theories, either, though.

I also would be open to the possibility of other attacks pre-dating Nichols might be the Ripper working himself up his later levels of violence, though I am unaware of any that would match that.

hi fiver
i am! milllwood. attacked by an unidentified man close to where tabram was. stabbed with a small knife in the lower part of her body. survived but died later.

then tabram with both a smaller knife and a larger knife

then nichols with with just a larger knife

then chapman larger knife and the rippers mature MO organ removel

stride hes interupted

eddowes same as chapman and facial mutilation escalation

mary kelly all of the above

mckenzie interupted

series ends

c8 as far as im concerned ( excluding the torsos which he probably did also)

[Michael W Richards]

Apparently you missed that the majority of my posts have been questioning what is unproven, including your theories.

I did make a serious error in the post you replied to. I meant to say: Nichols, Chapman, and Eddowes seem to be definite victims of this killer, with Tabram as a possible, and Stride and Kelly as probables.

Tabram was stabbed, with two weapons indicating two killers or one killer with two weapons. Both possibiliities seem improbable, but one must be true. It seems more unlikely that two men would both try to inflict that amount of stabbing, so one killer seems more likely. There are differences between her killing and those of the others, but also similarities. That could mean a separate killer or it could mean a first killing by the Ripper, who advanced to cutting open his later victims. Thus I rate Tabram as a possible.

Stride was killed in a similar manner to the other victims, but not mutilated. That could mean another killer, or it could mean the Ripper was interrupted, as he appears to have been with Chapman. Consensus at the time seems to have been that Stride was a Ripper victim, so I rate her a probable.

Kelly was killed indoors, a significant change from the Rippers previous killings, but the method of killing and organ removals match. Consensus at the time also seems to have been that Kelly was a Ripper victim, so I rate her a probable.

Which means I would have no problems with reasonable theories about there being other killers for Stride and/or Kelly. I won't just blindly accept those theories, either, though.

I also would be open to the possibility of other attacks pre-dating Nichols might be the Ripper working himself up his later levels of violence, though I am unaware of any that would match that.

I haven't given out any "theories" I might have at all, Ive just pointed out some facts and suggested some possible meanings based on those. Some gasp and suggest Conspiracies or some such criticism, I would say that refusing to look at alternative answers to the ones that have been put forth ad infinitum here and on other boards...all unproven....isn't the best way to establish any truths. But so be it. The Canonical Group itself is the least sustainable "theory" that has existed all these years by virtue of its unprovability, despite many efforts to do so.

Tabram...its illogical to assume with the evidence of 2 weapons, one much larger and used once at the very end of the attack, represents 1 killer with 2 weapons. One man stabs her 38 times and then remembers he has a dagger on him? Seems sensible to you? She was also stabbed to death and there is no indication that was done by someone bent of mutilating the corpse after he killed. Jack the Rippers 2 first alleged victims had their throats cut twice and deeply...and Marthas throat? There is no good argument that warrants including her among a "list".

Stride was not killed in a similar fashion to any other victims, let alone the preceding ones. She had her throat slit once, and was left untouched to die. To have to say that here makes me wonder what people are imagining in order to validate Stride as "ripped". She was killed, end of story.

Kate Eddowes murder may well fit with Polly and Annie in many aspects, but she departs from the established patterns in just as many. And we have circumstantial evidence that is to date unexplained.

Mary Kelly was indoors...that's one departure...she was in her sleeping attire...that's 2, and she was in her own room...that's 3. She had her uterus taken out and left behind...(the only organ taken away in its full and partial form from the preceding victims), and she has defensive wounds, something none of the others do. Her killer took everything out of her midsection, cut the flesh from both thighs, one completely, she had her face scored by slashing, she had organs left between her legs and under her head. She was half the age of previous victims, and in an admitted love triangle when she dies. She was not out soliciting, as ONLY the first 2 Canonicals left evidence of.


I can see that you'd like a long list by one man like many others, maybe including Emma, and Torsos, and Ada, but the facts are that within the Canonical Group alone there are very good arguments to exclude some victims. The actual presumed list should be shorter based on evidence, not longer.

If people want to believe in the boogyman, that only 1 man was a woman killer in the Fall of 1888 in East London, that the knife skills of a butcher were limited to one man during this period, and that all Unsolved murders were committed by one man as a result of his mad desire to kill...that's their business. Im not interested in sweeping all the inconsistencies, incongruities, the circumstances of the individual women and the nature of their wounds under one mans carpet myself. Its not warranted, never has been, and never will be.

But by all means, play on.

[Fiver]

I haven't given out any "theories" I might have at all, Ive just pointed out some facts and suggested some possible meanings based on those.

Now you're arguing semantics. What you call pointing out facts and suggesting "some possible meanings based on those" most people would call theorizing on your part.

I would say that refusing to look at alternative answers to the ones that have been put forth ad infinitum here and on other boards...all unproven....isn't the best way to establish any truths.

I would agree, but I would also apply the same standard to those alternate answers. For example, your "suggested possible meanings' about the aliases used by Catherine Eddowes and whether she was trying to blackmail someone are "alternative answers". As you may have noted, most people weighing in on that thread have examined your "alternative answers" and rejected them because there are less probable than the common views, not because they are alternatives to the common views.

[Trapperologist]

John Wilding’s version sounds like it would make sense here: Mary Kelly is the ringleader recruiting the other girls with her scheme. Mary didn’t want to risk her life unnecessarily so Catherine Eddowes was chosen to pick up the extortion money. Mary was waiting outside the police office. It was only Kate’s mistake to be using the name Mary Kelly and that got her killed.

I don’t think it’s true but I have no doubt Mary was one of the 40 victims of Edmund Hope Verney who was only too willing to pay women to keep quiet.

[Sam Flynn]

It was only Kate's mistake to be using the name Mary Kelly and that got her killed.

An alias that was, as far as we can tell, only known to a police officer at the cells from which she was released within an hour of her death.

[Trapperologist]

“Hi I’m here to collect the money from Mr. X.”

”What’s you name?”

”Mary Kelly.”

The End

[DJA]

John Wilding’s version sounds like it would make sense here: Mary Kelly is the ringleader recruiting the other girls with her scheme. Mary didn’t want to risk her life unnecessarily so Catherine Eddowes was chosen to pick up the extortion money. It was only Kate’s mistake to be using the name Mary Kelly and that got her killed.

Kindly excuse the edit.

Eddowes gave Kelly's real name,Mary Ann Kelly who was 29 years of age, along with the address of the soup kitchen behind Stride's residential building that was freely accessible through an archway of that building.

[DJA]

An alias that was, as far as we can tell, only known to a police officer at the cells from which she was released within an hour of her death.

But,but ..... then the men from Jewry Street would be the ones to blame for nothing

[Trapperologist]

Kindly excuse the edit.

Eddowes gave Kelly's real name,Mary Ann Kelly who was 29 years of age, along with the address of the soup kitchen behind Stride's residential building that was freely accessible through an archway of that building.

If it’s an edit, shouldn’t there be an extortion possibility at play between MAK and Dr. Sutton?

Excuse me but I only see one with MJW and EHV.

[DJA]

Yep.

Where and with whom was Eddowes during her missing 20 minutes?

No mention of wet clothing or blood spray,so it seems she was strangled.

[JeffHamm]

Yep.

Where and with whom was Eddowes during her missing 20 minutes?

No mention of wet clothing or blood spray,so it seems she was strangled.

Well, nobody knows of course, but here's a not entirely unreasonable suggestion. We know Eddowes turned left when exiting the police station, and we know that she ends up in Mitre Square. So, left from the police station takes her towards Houndsditch, and heading down Houndsditch she ends up at St. Boltolph's Church, otherwise known at the time as the "prostitute's Church", as ladies would walk around it to avoid loitering charges, and presumably there could be shelter as well? (This information about St.B. Church is found her on casebook, forget exactly where though). Anyway, it's just under a 7 minute walk from the station to the church, so she would arrive there somewhere around 1:07ish. She's possibly spotted at 1:33-1:35 at the end of Church Passage, in the company of a man. which is 430 ft (about 2 minute walk). We know from Lawende and friends that at 1:30 it was raining very heavily, and they waited for it to let up, which it did around 1:33-1:35 (based upon testimony by Levy and Lawende, respectively). So, it's reasonable to suggest (I think) that the couple were not walking between 1:30 and 1:33, so if they arrived at Church Passage at 1:30, they left St. B's Church around 1:28. So, to the extent one accepts that sighting as legit (and I recognize that is not a hard and fast fact, but to be fair, even if it's not Eddowes and JtR, the notion they are sheltering until the rain stops before entering Mitre Square would still apply, but they would have to travel further to get to either of the other two entrances), it would suggest that somewhere between 1:07 and say 1:28, Eddowes was at St. B's church, soliciting, and at some point during that time, JtR came along. They may have chatted a few minutes at the Church, then went off to find a secluded spot to conduct business.

Indications tend to point to her soliciting, and St. B's church was a known location to do that, and her exit from the police station gives her a direct route to it. She was also found drunk earlier in the day near the same location.

Anyway, no, I'm' not suggesting this is a fact, as clearly it's not. But I think it is certainly a reasonable hypothesis given the information we do know.