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What basis is there for a conspiracy theory?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

    ...but the Canonical Five, and those like them, didn't have a pot to pi$$ in. There's a world of difference.



    They were the random victims of a bomb. Terrorists seldom "target" specific individuals.
    Sam, Liz made money that same afternoon, she had steady work.. Mary and Kate seemed to get drunk without money or soliciting. Mary had the room in her own name. And as for terrorism being possible here, they all didn't have to be targets per se, they just had to serve the purpose. I believe Im clear about the fact that I see Polly and Annie almost certainly the victim of the same deranged killer, that does not
    naturally extend then to any other Unsolved murder for me. They are to be seen independently for clarity, and there are circumstantial features in many of the which leave alternative reasoning for their murders.

    If one steps back a bit to look at the broader environment, we then see simultaneous public hearings into possible corruption of Parliament by Irish self rule factions, and we have many double agents, dynamiters, and known terrorists in London as a result. We also know an assassination attempt was in progress.
    Michael Richards

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    • #32
      All it would have needed was for Kate to earn, beg, borrow or find a shilling in the gutter, and three or four gins on an empty stomach would have done the rest.
      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
        All it would have needed was for Kate to earn, beg, borrow or find a shilling in the gutter, and three or four gins on an empty stomach would have done the rest.
        So, if that the case...what evidence do we have that Kate ever begged for money? What do you think the likelihood was that some money was just lying about in the gutter? In a poverty stricken ghetto? How long would it have been lying there? Thing is Sam, we have 2 women who were almost incoherent on booze without any known source of income to account for that, and no evidence that they solicited to get the money. Fortuitously finding money in the gutter is hardly a preferable answer to someone paying for them.
        Michael Richards

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        • #34
          What I said was not in the slightest bit unlikely. As to begging - (a) why not? and (b) she was found drunk outside Whitechapel, wasn't she? (Not that it would have been impossible to get hold of a shilling from a few hours' begging there.)
          Kind regards, Sam Flynn

          "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
            What I said was not in the slightest bit unlikely. As to begging - (a) why not? and (b) she was found drunk outside Whitechapel, wasn't she? (Not that it would have been impossible to get hold of a shilling from a few hours' begging there.)
            Just missing that vital component Sam...any evidence of that at all.
            Michael Richards

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

              Just missing that vital component Sam...any evidence of that at all.
              Statistically speaking alone, there is far more evidence that poor people begged or scratched around for money in slum areas than there is for Fenian conspiracies to eviscerate 40 year-old homeless women on the public streets.
              Kind regards, Sam Flynn

              "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post

                Statistically speaking alone, there is far more evidence that poor people begged or scratched around for money in slum areas than there is for Fenian conspiracies to eviscerate 40 year-old homeless women on the public streets.
                Sam, of all people you shouldn't be putting words into my mouth. I never once said that she was killed by Fenians, I have said that Fenians, terrorists and all sorts of bad guys were in that place at that same time, in order to illustrate what kinds of men could kill and their predilection to doing so. Granted, I say that more to prove that there were other killers than just this fictional Jack running about than I do to suggest Kate was killed by one of them, but the point is there. We do not have evidence that Kate was soliciting that day, nor that she was begging, or that she found some drinking money in the gutter, what we do have is a statement that she intended to rat out someone she believed was a killer, and if she believed that based on the murders to that point, she would have to know he was really nasty. Even if he just heard she was going to squeal, he would have reasons to kill her. I suggest maybe since she was baiting a bear anyway, maybe she tried for the grand prize. Hush money.
                Michael Richards

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post
                  Even if he just heard she was going to squeal, he would have reasons to kill her.
                  So how come none of the other people - who were reported as saying they too knew who the killer was, in the same paper - didn't also end up getting murdered?

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                    Sam, of all people you shouldn't be putting words into my mouth. I never once said that she was killed by Fenians, I have said that Fenians, terrorists and all sorts of bad guys were in that place at that same time
                    Fair enough, but what I said otherwise stands. There is far, far more evidence of poor middle-aged slum dwellers begging for money - or scraping money together by whatever means for that matter - than there is for poor middle-aged slum dwellers being deliberately and publicly bumped off in gruesome fashion for whatever reason, whether there Fenians involved or not.
                    Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                    "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Joshua Rogan View Post

                      So how come none of the other people - who were reported as saying they too knew who the killer was, in the same paper - didn't also end up getting murdered?
                      How many of them claimed that they were going to claim the reward based on that information? Hell, many locals would know who the bad guys were, but Kate said she didn't fear falling victim to him. That implies that they would have known each other. Maybe the kind of relationship that would make her feel at ease putting her hand on his chest when she showed up outside Mitre Square. If, of course, that was her.

                      Just wanted to add that people of all walks of life can become acquainted with dangerous, vicious people, and that doesn't automatically translate to a risk. Dangerous people are only dangerous to their enemies,.... there are lots of brutal, extremely violent individuals who also have otherwise calm and benign lifestyles. To imagine humans beings as one dimensional entities is naïve. Kate could well have known someone with a ruthless, vicious reputation, and that person might be no more threat than just another friend to her.

                      Don't all of you know someone bad? Someone who you knew, or suspected, was dark, and yet your relationship with them...even as passing acquaintances perhaps, doesn't present any risk? Someone you can say hi to, and not fear them?

                      But what if you threatened to squeal to the police about them?
                      Last edited by Michael W Richards; 10-23-2019, 12:58 PM.
                      Michael Richards

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                        How many of them claimed that they were going to claim the reward based on that information?
                        There was no reward in place at the time Eddowes and her steady partner of seven years Kelly were hop picking in Kent.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          There was no reward in place at the time Eddowes and her steady partner of seven years Kelly were hop picking in Kent.
                          There were sums offered privately, that could not be prevented by the authorities, I thought that had been made clear earlier here Sam. And steady "partner", as Kelly also described them is a long haul from my "wife", "lover", "girlfriend", "mate", "spouse", main squeeze, what have you...or any of a bunch of different ways he could have described their relationship.
                          Michael Richards

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                          • #43
                            How do we know that Catherine didn’t get drunk on money that she’d earned from prostitution?
                            Regards

                            Herlock






                            "Crime is common. Logic is rare. Therefore it is upon the logic rather than upon the crime that you should dwell.”

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Herlock Sholmes View Post
                              How do we know that Catherine didn’t get drunk on money that she’d earned from prostitution?
                              People that conducted that sort of business on the streets generally did so after dark, she was picked up drunk just after 8:00pm. We don't know for sure of course, but its improbable.
                              Michael Richards

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Michael W Richards View Post

                                And steady "partner", as Kelly also described them is a long haul from my "wife", "lover", "girlfriend", "mate", "spouse", main squeeze, what have you...or any of a bunch of different ways he could have described their relationship.
                                The only reason why I put that in bold was to remind us that Eddowes had been closely involved with a man called Kelly for the best part of a decade. No need to posit that Eddowes had a woman named Kelly in mind when she plucked that alias - sorry, two different aliases - out of her head at the police station and... oh yes, the pawnbrokers, of course.
                                Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                                "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

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