Mary Jane Wilson

[MayBea]

I've never heard of such a theory. Your link is to the other thread, and to a further link where someone typed some words into a Google Books search box which brought up a Ripper book with a picture of James Maybrick on the cover.

It must depend where you are. The link takes me right to the page in question.

It's deep in the book in the James Kelly paragraph after the Ostrog section. The pages aren't numbered. The source appears to be The Secret of Prisoner 1167.

You may or may not get a view.

http://books.google.ca/books?id=whakTPgHW3IC&printsec=frontcover&dq=jack+ripper+whitehead&hl=en&sa=X&ei=lqKDU63cJur28AHbiIH4DA&ved=0CB8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=jack%20ripper%20whitehead&f=false

[Roy Corduroy]

That's great you've read Neal's new book, MayBea.

A pregnant Liverpool MJK figures into some James Kelly theories too.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7913&page=15

I've never heard of such a theory. Your link is to the other thread, and to a further link where someone typed some words into a Google Books search box which brought up a Ripper book with a picture of James Maybrick on the cover.



But we're wandering. Back to your theory.

Her name was on the baptismal record as the mother but I don't believe she was there for the ceremony. The godmother has been identified as a 58 year old woman!

The birth registration in Liverpool makes sense to me. Why not take the baby back to Liverpool?

I've heard it claimed that she could have registered the boy in London with the name of the father who was still in Liverpool but there had to be some possibility of a police check. Would she risk being found out by the local registrar?

These are the questions you will have to ponder, MayBea. I'm in the mainstream that Mary Kelly didn't have a pregnancy and birth of a child during this time period. It's not in the known recollections of Joe and the others. So again, this new theory is out of the blue. You might say it's

Beam Me Up Scottie Road

(no personal offense MayBea, I appreciate all the time and effort you have put into this, just couldn't resist)

Roy

[MayBea]

I'm glad to hear you have a suspect from Liverpool. A pregnant Liverpool MJK figures into some James Kelly theories too.

http://forum.casebook.org/showthread.php?t=7913&page=15

I have read Neal Sheldon's new kindle book about Mary Kelly and it's great to have Mrs. Buki identified. But I never for a minute thought her or Morganstone or Flemming weren't real people.

So the "London" part of Joe Barnett's story about Mary Kelly is verified up to a point. It is hard to reconcile this "Mary Kelly" actually taking time out from being "her" to have a baby and go back to Liverpool and christen it at St Anthony's Scottie Road around the corner from where she lived as Mary Wilson with hubby and her other kids.

Her name was on the baptismal record as the mother but I don't believe she was there for the ceremony. The godmother has been identified as a 58 year old woman!

The birth registration in Liverpool makes sense to me. Why not take the baby back to Liverpool?

I've heard it claimed that she could have registered the boy in London with the name of the father who was still in Liverpool but there had to be some possibility of a police check. Would she risk being found out by the local registrar?

[Roy Corduroy]

Hello MayBea,

I agree with Sam when he says -

It's not so much Barnett's story, as that of Mrs Carthy, who tells of Kelly's being in the East End from about 1884/85, before she met Barnett. From her, we learn about Kelly's relationship with Morganstone from that time, which can be independently verified. Likewise, we hear from Mrs Felix ("Phoenix") of Kelly's other exploits in the East End of London at this time. We also know that Kelly had a relationship with Joseph Flemming before she met Barnett - again, we can verify that this Joe Flemming existed. Kelly's relationship with him lasted until 1887, after which she took up with Joe Barnett.

I think we can be fairly sure, therefore, that "Mary Kelly" (whatever her real name) was a resident of in the East End of London from circa 1884/85, and that she was firmly based there from that time until her death.

There was an excellent article by Neal Shelden including info on Morganstone/Phoenix in the e-magazine Casebook Examiner #1. It was free to Casebook members at the time. If you don't have it and would like to read it, send me your e-mail in a Private Message and I will forward the document to you.

Also, he, Neal Shelden has a new kindle book out Mary Jane Kelly and the Victims of Jack the Ripper: The 125th Anniversary. I've not read it, but it's recommended to have the very latest research.

And yes, Joe Fleming has been traced and was a real person.

So the "London" part of Joe Barnett's story about Mary Kelly is verified up to a point. It is hard to reconcile this "Mary Kelly" actually taking time out from being "her" to have a baby and go back to Liverpool and christen it at St Anthony's Scottie Road around the corner from where she lived as Mary Wilson with hubby and her other kids. It's a drastic re-writing of the known factoids, which have taken years to uncover and sort out.

I have enjoyed this discussion however, thank you. And I have learned a lot about Liverpool streets and geography which has helped me in the study of James Kelly, my fave suspect.

And there is still the mystery - what became of Mary Jane Wilson.

Roy

[MayBea]

Mary Jane Wilson, maiden name Kelly lived in Everton where she married, had children, living in proximity to her siblings and mother, and her in-laws the Wilsons. She drops out of the known record after 1887.

However we do know a little bit about her missing time between 1881 and 1890 when her children were orphaned.

After being married in 1872 and having a child in 1875, 1878 and 1880, she didn't have another one on record until September 1887.

Her husband died of TB in January 1890. Did the disease take its full course in two or three years, or was it much longer, up to ten years which can be the case? Was he in the infirmary? Did she take drastic measures and try to go back to work as a servant, perhaps looking up her servant and tailor relatives in London, originally from Liverpool?

Then again there is George West's Birkenhead Mary Jane Kelly from circa 1880 to 82 at the latest. The match is rejected, it seems because she doesn't match London Mary Jane Kelly, not because she doesn't match Mary Jane Wilson.

I mention her to show that Mary Wilson, if she is Birkenhead MJK, did indeed leave Liverpool at times. Her sister in Birkenhead became a widow in 1880.

[MayBea]

I confirm what Gareth is saying...to right pond ears the scouse accent is particularly strident and distinctive...eeh wack...and all that being only a slight exaggeration...

I've been watching a few scouse accent Youtube videos and I can hear what you mean, Dave. Liverpool made me think Beatles. They were very understandable in interviews in America in the 60s.

Could being a singer have any effect on ones ability to change, overcome or hide a strong accent, Mary being someone who could sing for hours?

[MayBea]

...By the way, Caernarfon really isn't that strongly associated with Arthur. It dips in and out of the public consciousness periodically, such as when ... Prince Charles was invested there as Prince of Wales in 1969.

Those were the days! When people still looked to Charles!

I'm probably the only one left in the Charles camp. I think Camilla sounds a lot like Ca-mee-lot!

[Sam Flynn]

Haven't you already eliminated all 'Mary Kellys' from Liverpool with your strong believe in her Welsh origins?

I don't have a strong belief in her Welsh origins, I just think that a good case can be made that there was a kernel of truth in her story.

You can rule her out documentarily based on that alone, if you want. I guess it has to be based on your perception of Barnett's story

It's not so much Barnett's story, as that of Mrs Carthy, who tells of Kelly's being in the East End from about 1884/85, before she met Barnett. From her, we learn about Kelly's relationship with Morganstone from that time, which can be independently verified. Likewise, we hear from Mrs Felix ("Phoenix") of Kelly's other exploits in the East End of London at this time. We also know that Kelly had a relationship with Joseph Flemming before she met Barnett - again, we can verify that this Joe Flemming existed. Kelly's relationship with him lasted until 1887, after which she took up with Joe Barnett.

I think we can be fairly sure, therefore, that "Mary Kelly" (whatever her real name) was a resident of in the East End of London from circa 1884/85, and that she was firmly based there from that time until her death.

[MayBea]

Haven't you already eliminated all 'Mary Kellys' from Liverpool with your strong believe in her Welsh origins?

All we know definitely of Mary Wilson post 1881, and therefore 1885-1888, onwards is that she was in Liverpool on October 24, 1887 to register her child.

You can rule her out documentarily based on that alone, if you want. I guess it has to be based on your perception of Barnett's story, whether Mary could hide a pregnancy, or Barnett would admit to it.

Personally, I'd like to see her found dead or alive somewhere, other than Whitechapel in 1888 of course, before I'd exclude her. That missing record and the family connection to Whitechapel are key for me.

[MayBea]

Haven't you already eliminated all 'Mary Kellys' from Liverpool with your strong belief in her Welsh origins?

All we know definitely of Mary Wilson post 1881, and therefore 1885-1888 onwards, is that she was in Liverpool on October 24, 1887 to register her child.

You can rule her out documentarily based on that alone, if you want. I guess it has to be based on your perception of Barnett's story, whether Mary could hide a pregnancy, or Barnett would admit to it.

Personally, I'd like to see her found dead alive somewhere, other than Whitechapel in 1888 of course, before I'd exclude her. That missing record and the family connection to Whitechapel are key for me.

[Sam Flynn]

Mary Jane Wilson.. drops out of the known record after 1887.

That probably rules her out, because "our" Mary Jane Kelly's whereabouts are reasonably well-known from 1885 onwards. She was with in the East End, with Mrs Felix ("Phoenix"), Boekü ("Buki"), Morganstone, Joe Flemming and Joe Barnett (among others) until the time of her death.

[Roy Corduroy]

Briggs Haulage Co on Rachel Street, Everton Liverpool

Mary Jane Wilson, maiden name Kelly lived in Everton where she married, had children, living in proximity to her siblings and mother, and her in-laws the Wilsons. She drops out of the known record after 1887.

Roy

[Sam Flynn]

Caernarfon Castle was mentioned on a recent radio program as being associated with the legends of King Arthur. How is that for glamour?

Sadly, radio wasn't widely available in 1888

By the way, Caernarfon really isn't that strongly associated with Arthur. It dips in and out of the public consciousness periodically, such as when Lord "Carnarvon" sponsored Howard Carter in discovering Tutankhamun's tomb in 1922, or when Prince Charles was invested there as Prince of Wales in 1969. Even in today's world of mass-media, I'm not sure that Caernarfon, still less Carmarthen or Cwmavon, would resonate much with people living outside Wales.

I still get the feeling that, if she was going to make up a Welsh connection with no prior knowledge, she'd have come up with more "obvious" places.

[MayBea]

What do you think of Mary picking Wales as a place of origin because her boyfriend was from England and his parents were from Ireland? Wales would be out of his experience.

I guess it all hinges on whether she said Caernarfon, Carmarthen or Cwmavon. If she was making it up, I'd still lean toward Caernarfon whether or not she was Welsh.

Caernarfon Castle was mentioned on a recent radio program as being associated with the legends of King Arthur. How is that for glamour?

http://www.ancientfortresses.org/caernarvon-castle-welsh-mythology.htm

If she's not Welsh, then Cardiff was only thrown in because of the sickness/infirmary story and needing a stepping stone to London. This part of her story had to take place in a larger city.

[Sam Flynn]

The actual place might not be famous but the names sometimes are. Carnarvon and Cardiff are famous place-names, even in Mary's time.

I didn't mention Cardiff, because it falls into the "really well-known" category, thus a reasonable target for a made-up biography. Although - interestingly - even there it's Kelly's cousin who had the primary Cardiff connection, not Kelly herself. This, in itself, might tell us something.

So much for Cardiff. Caernarfon might have been quasi-famous, but - apart from the good Earl - I can't imagine it was at the forefront of the nation's consciousness. That would be truer still of Carmarthen, and even more so of Cwmavon.

So, I can only reaffirm that none of these latter three strike me as likely locations for a "made-up" biography. Of the three, Carmarthen and Cwmavon are by far the more likely. They were both in the South, like Cardiff, offered good job prospects for immigrant workers, and attracted the Irish in particular.