Mary Jane Wilson

[caz]

The next step would have been Master baker-if he'd have wanted to progress his career.

Wasn't that Kosminski?

[MayBea]

If she was from Liverpool, why did nobody in Whitechapel mention her Scouse accent? There were many Liverpudlians in London (significantly more, in fact, than there were Welsh people), so the accent would have been very well-known and easily identifiable.

Unfortunately, Sam, not many of the Liverpudlians seem to have ended up in the Whitechapel area.

A familysearch.org search comes up with these stats:

1881 Census
Whitechapel, London

Born in Liverpool 11

Born in Wales 95

[Sam Flynn]

Unfortunately, Sam, not many of the Liverpudlians seem to have ended up in the Whitechapel area.

A familysearch.org search comes up with these stats:

1881 Census
Whitechapel, London

Born in Liverpool 11Born in Wales 95

Thanks for that, MB, however if we were to search on "Lancashire", or some such catch-all, I suspect we'd get a very different picture.

"Wales" is, of course, a catch-all term. It could mean: Carmarthen, Caernarfon, Cwmafan, Cwmavon, Cardiff, Crymych, Conwy, Cydweli, Caldicot, Caerphilly. And that's just picking some arbitrary (and not so arbitrary) towns starting with "C", that span the north, south, east and west of Wales. The denizens of these towns speak with different accents, not all of which would be discernible as "Welsh" to the layperson - indeed, there are many and varied Welsh accents which your average Brit will seldom, if ever, have heard. Even fewer would have heard them in 1888.

In contrast, the Liverpool/Lancashire/Wallasey/St Helens/Prescot/Wirral/Birkenhead accent - in short, "Scouse" - would surely have been better known, and more readily identifiable, now as well as back then. Especially, perhaps, in a docklands area like London's East End.

[MayBea]

I tried it, Sam. Lancashire-born residents of Whitechapel in 1881:

196

That's out of a population of 15000.

By comparison Polish-born:

1787

Scouse or Welsh accents would be equally unfamiliar to the average Whitechapel resident.

[Sam Flynn]

I tried it, Sam. Lancashire-born residents of Whitechapel in 1881:

196

That's out of a population of 15000.

By comparison Polish-born:

1787

By comparison, "Wales" born, 95.

Scouse or Welsh accents would be equally unfamiliar to the average Whitechapel resident.

Not Scouse, sorry, MB. The Liverpool accent is very distinctive, although - as I once discovered to my cost - it can be easily confused with the accent of Connah's Quay

[MayBea]

Ultimately for me, it boils down to whether or not the Street Minister (or the other witnesses who definitely knew her) could fail to identify a Liverpool accent, or knew what a Welsh accent is supposed to sound like.

It's possible he knew neither and only said she wasn't Welsh because he heard about the letters from her mother in Ireland. However, the papers made him sound authoritative on the issue.

It's interesting to note that the Salvation Army Wales headquarters was in Carnarvon.
http://www.collectiveworship.com/ActDetails/?ID=219

[Cogidubnus]

I confirm what Gareth is saying...to right pond ears the scouse accent is particularly strident and distinctive...eeh wack...and all that being only a slight exaggeration...

Welsh people are usually easily recognised by an uplift at the end of a sentence...look you, at the end of a sentence being the typical cliche...but I can visualise an area where, with this uplift not being present, origin might well present a puzzle...

All the best

Dave

[MayBea]

Wasn't that Kosminski?

One of the possible Kosminskis was a Master Baker: Maurice Kosminski, age 28 in 1891, born Russia

http://www.casebook.org/forum/messages/4922/5814.html

As for Robert Wilson trying to become a Master Baker in October of 1887, it has to be remembered that he died of TB in January of 1890. That's less just over two years.

I believe it more likely he would have been fatally ill at the time, perhaps already in the Workhouse Infirmary where he died.

[MayBea]

...I can visualise an area where, with this uplift not being present, origin might well present a puzzle...

Thanks, Dave. I don't think accent is an issue unless she knew someone like Morgan Davies.

What do you think of the argument that Mary couldn't be from Liverpool and pretend to be from Wales but could only pretend to be from Wales if she was indeed from Wales (a fake origin that included Wales where she came from because that was what she knew)?

Why couldn't someone from Wales faking a background just say she was English, from say, Gloucestershire or Somerset or wherever? Is that so far removed she'd think she'd be found out? Likewise for someone from Liverpool saying they're Welsh?

[Cogidubnus]

I have a scouse mate (Wallasey/Birkenhead actually) who's been out of the Wirral about thirty five years and you can still hear that particular accent quite distinctly (albeit not as clearly now as when I first knew him) at twenty five...I think it's one you'd have some trouble disguising as Welsh after just a few years away...not impossible of course, just difficult...

On the other hand, some of the softer Welsh accents, you could perhaps lose...I do remember as a child one of my friend's mother was from somewhere in the valleys but you could only tell when she got excited or stressed out...

Inconclusive I know, but...

All the best

Dave

[Sam Flynn]

Why couldn't someone from Wales faking a background just say she was English, from say, Gloucestershire or Somerset or wherever? Is that so far removed she'd think she'd be found out? Likewise for someone from Liverpool saying they're Welsh?

Why would anyone pretend to be from Cwmavon/Carmarthen/Caernarfon, though? Much as I love my country these aren't the most glamorous places in the world and, in the scheme of things, it's not as if they're particularly "famous" either.

To draw a parallel, let's say Kelly claimed to be from Liverpool. Without corroboration, we might get suspicious and say, "Well, Liverpool was a very well-known city at that time, with a strong Irish connection, so perhaps she made it up". However, if she claimed to be from Prescot or Huyton, that would be a different matter altogether.

It's that "small town" dimension (Cwmavon/Carmarthen/Caernarfon) that arguably makes Kelly's Welsh connection a little more plausible to me.

[MayBea]

Why would anyone pretend to be from Cwmavon/Carmarthen/Caernarfon, though? Much as I love my country these aren't the most glamorous places in the world and, in the scheme of things, it's not as if they're particularly "famous" either.

The actual place might not be famous but the names sometimes are. Carnarvon and Cardiff are famous place-names, even in Mary's time.

The Earl of Carnarvon was the Viceroy of Ireland in 1885-86 and the place-name Cardiff is famous since 1869 with the Cardiff Giant of Cardiff, NY.

I don't think Hoyton has the same ring.

If Prescot does, it's because of the C-O or c followed by a vowel.

[Sam Flynn]

The actual place might not be famous but the names sometimes are. Carnarvon and Cardiff are famous place-names, even in Mary's time.

I didn't mention Cardiff, because it falls into the "really well-known" category, thus a reasonable target for a made-up biography. Although - interestingly - even there it's Kelly's cousin who had the primary Cardiff connection, not Kelly herself. This, in itself, might tell us something.

So much for Cardiff. Caernarfon might have been quasi-famous, but - apart from the good Earl - I can't imagine it was at the forefront of the nation's consciousness. That would be truer still of Carmarthen, and even more so of Cwmavon.

So, I can only reaffirm that none of these latter three strike me as likely locations for a "made-up" biography. Of the three, Carmarthen and Cwmavon are by far the more likely. They were both in the South, like Cardiff, offered good job prospects for immigrant workers, and attracted the Irish in particular.

[MayBea]

What do you think of Mary picking Wales as a place of origin because her boyfriend was from England and his parents were from Ireland? Wales would be out of his experience.

I guess it all hinges on whether she said Caernarfon, Carmarthen or Cwmavon. If she was making it up, I'd still lean toward Caernarfon whether or not she was Welsh.

Caernarfon Castle was mentioned on a recent radio program as being associated with the legends of King Arthur. How is that for glamour?

http://www.ancientfortresses.org/cae...-mythology.htm

If she's not Welsh, then Cardiff was only thrown in because of the sickness/infirmary story and needing a stepping stone to London. This part of her story had to take place in a larger city.

[Sam Flynn]

Caernarfon Castle was mentioned on a recent radio program as being associated with the legends of King Arthur. How is that for glamour?

Sadly, radio wasn't widely available in 1888

By the way, Caernarfon really isn't that strongly associated with Arthur. It dips in and out of the public consciousness periodically, such as when Lord "Carnarvon" sponsored Howard Carter in discovering Tutankhamun's tomb in 1922, or when Prince Charles was invested there as Prince of Wales in 1969. Even in today's world of mass-media, I'm not sure that Caernarfon, still less Carmarthen or Cwmavon, would resonate much with people living outside Wales.

I still get the feeling that, if she was going to make up a Welsh connection with no prior knowledge, she'd have come up with more "obvious" places.