Jack, Son of Jack

[MayBea]

Here they are in 1861 in St. Alban, Lancashire:

James Wilson 40
Rose Wilson 41
Thomas Wilson 17
Jane Wilson 14
Robert Wilson 9
James Wilson 9

This family was found by Debra Arif, despite there being a transcription error in Robert's age.

Livia Trivia found they had another daughter born around 1841. Her name is Mary Ann.

[MayBea]

Livia Trivia found they had another daughter born around 1841. Her name is Mary Ann. BOLD MINE

It's strange but I found a Family Tree of a descendant of Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup and, where Rose Wilson should be, it lists Mary Ann's mother as "Mary Jane Kelly".

It looks like Robert Wilson could have married a cousin. I can't find the baptisms of the twins, Robert and James, to verify the mother's name.

The Tree can be found by logging into your Ancestry account and looking at the Darlington Family Tree of JanetD23.

[Paddy]

From Free Bmd

I think this is probably them will look to see if I can find more

Pat...................

Births Jun 1852
Wilson James Liverpool 8b 9
Wilson Robert Liverpool 8b 9

[MayBea]

It's strange but I found a Family Tree of a descendant of Mary Ann Wilson/Stirrup and, where Rose Wilson should be, it lists Mary Ann's mother as "Mary Jane Kelly".

Two other trees for the same family leave the mother's name empty as Unknown.

It seems that James Wilson's wife, Rose, in the 51 and 61 Censuses, is not his first wife, and not the mother of the older children.

Son, Robert, could then have married a blood, Kelly cousin of his older siblings but not his.

[GUT]

Be very careful with other peoples trees on web sites, I've seen some, relating to my own family, that are pure flights of fantasy. I would very much take one reference to Mary Jane Kelly as mother of Mary Anne with a grain of salt, unless it's supported by documentation.

[Paddy]

Robert and James...

Maybea,
If you have Rose and James Wilson in 1851 and 1861, Rose must be Roberts mother as he and his twin were born in 1852. I looked in both Catholic and ordinary baptisms and christening but found nothing.
I agree with GUT I expect they meant it was Roberts wife not his mother, thats how I would take it.
I have checked newspapers and criminal records from 1879 and cant find any related to a Mary Jane Kelly. When her mum was in Birkenhead in 1881 with Annie and her dad with Robert and Mary in 1881, were they living apart? Or just visiting?
Anyway still looking....

Pat........................

[MayBea]

When her mum was in Birkenhead in 1881 with Annie and her dad with Robert and Mary in 1881, were they living apart? Or just visiting?

The census records the father and the mother as visitors in the respective households.

The cost of the ferry ride across the Mersey may have been prohibitive, therefore requiring a lengthier stay. Ann was also a recent widow and a new mother and working as a milk dealer.

1881 Census

John Dixon 65
Ann Dixon 68
Ellen Dixon 14
Ann A. Dixon 29
George Dixon 1
Mary Kelly 60 visitor

[Debra A]

There is this MJK in the criminal records that might be worth further research to see if she corresponds to George West's MJK

[MayBea]

This is the best piece of evidence:

The marriage certificate proving that Jack's uncle Henry's niece was living on Thrawl St. in 1887.

[Debra A]

Has anyone researched who the woman named Mary Jane Dixon who signed as a witness on one of the family wedding certificates (Was it Christina's? I can't remember offhand).

[Mayerling]

Thank you, Bridewell and GUT.


Might I mention that Jack Wilson was very talented musically. Family claims he could play every instrument by the age of ten, a claim similarly made of Sir Arthur Sullivan.

The talent and the name change to Arthur Sullivan is what led to earlier suggestions that the father was Sir Arthur Sullivan, famous patron of prostitutes.

I have to enquire - where did you get the information that the composer Sir Arthur Sullivan was a "famous patron of prostitutes". It's not impossible that he or Gilbert used them, but Sullivan was known for his long and faithful relationship with Mrs. Ronald, the wife of a banker. In the film "Topsy Turvey" they even discussed how Mrs. Ronald had to get an abortion as a result of their daliance.

Jeff

[Mayerling]

1891 census Birkenhead,

John Ryan born abt 1861 London, Surrey, England Visitor Retired Soldier Birkenhead, Cheshire

Visiting James Gleeson Gateman at Docks... RG12/2886 page 20

Pat

If there is a connection between the Wilsons, Ryan, and this James Gleeson Gateman, and the fact that Liverpool plays a part in this overall story, the matter may become more interesting than you might think.

In 1849 there was a mass murder in Liverpool of a boarding house keeper and her children by one John Gleeson Wilson, who apparently did it to rob the family (he was boarding with them). Wilson may have been insane, but he was tried, found guilty, and executed.

Jeff

[MayBea]

If there is a connection between the Wilsons, Ryan, and this James Gleeson Gateman, and the fact that Liverpool plays a part in this overall story, the matter may become more interesting than you might think.

Jack Wilson married into a family of Ryans and Batemans living in London. That was in 1919.

[MayBea]

I have to enquire - where did you get the information that the composer Sir Arthur Sullivan was a "famous patron of prostitutes"...In the film "Topsy Turvey" they even discussed how Mrs. Ronald had to get an abortion...

As I remember, Mayerling, there was a scene in Topsy Turvey of Sullivan in a French brothel. That would have happened in 1884, the same year Mary Kelly allegedly went to France. A connection was made there.

The Audience Guide for the Skylight Theatre on Broadway describes him thusly:

He smoked, drank, gambled and was
somewhat notorious for his voracious
appetites, including encounters with
prostitutes and indulging in fine food and
wine.

http://www.skylightmusictheatre.org/...ud-guide-5.pdf

[MayBea]

There is this MJK in the criminal records that might be worth further research to see if she corresponds to George West's MJK.

Hi Debra,

This is the article, you will agree, from which George West took his information about Mary Kelly. In it, her child is described as a son of 8.
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=18036

If West is describing a child matching the one in the Standard, then the child was born around 1880. West retired to another place in 1882 so the child he knew of, or saw, would be under two years old so it could well have been a girl. Again, we have a possible match.