Jack, Son of Jack

[MayBea]

Yes, Paddy. She would have been 10 months old.

That's why I think she might be George West's Birkenhead Mary Kelly. He doesn't mention if the child is male or female, perhaps because the child was too young for him to tell the gender.

[Paddy]

Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please?
Its strange I have a friend whos parents came from Ireland back a bit and she was born in Everton Liverpool name of Wilson. I seem to think her dad was called Isaac. I will give her a ring tomorrow and ask if she knew of this family.
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?

Pat................................

[Paddy]

Found your William John Wilsons Baptism?

I think this is the Wilsons, do you have this?

St Anthonys Catholic Church Liverpool
No 3921 Wilson
(born) Anno 1887 1 Mensis Septembris
(Baptized) Anno 1887 10 mensis Decembris Baptizatus est
Guliumus Joannes Wilson
Filius Roberti et Mariae (olim) Kelly
a me Alfredo Walmsley MC
Matrina Fuit Brigitta Leahy

Pat................................

[Paddy]

And Another

Rosa Wilson

Born 9 Jun 1878 Baptised 16 Jan 1879 at St Joseph's
Parents Roberti Wilson Marae Joannae Wilson (olim) Kelly
Matrina Fuit Eliza Adamson

Pat...............

[MayBea]

Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please? ...
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?

Here are the links to the discussion of West's letter to the London police, however the images are no longer accessible. Perhaps someone from jtrforums can be allowed to post the image or the text here on Casebook.

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17006
http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=17026

Mary Wilson would have died sometime between October 1887 when she registered her child and August 1890 when Christina was placed in the orphanage.

Since her death record hasn't been found, she could have survived and possibly remarried, but no one, as far as I know, has found her in 1891.

[MayBea]

No 3921 Wilson
(born) Anno 1887 1 Mensis Septembris
(Baptized) Anno 1887 10 mensis Decembris Baptizatus est
Guliumus Joannes Wilson

Thanks for finding his baptism.

Does the fact Robert and Mary are listed as parents mean that the parents were present for the baptism? If it does, that means Mary was still in Liverpool two months or three months after with her husband.

Just to correct what I said previously, Robert died in January of 1890 so it was two and a half years after the birth in 1887.

Rosa Wilson died in the last quarter of 1877.

Deaths Dec 1877 (FreeBMD)

WILSON Rosabelle 0 Preston 8e 379

[Debra A]

Maybea can you give me a link to what Mr West said please?
Its strange I have a friend whos parents came from Ireland back a bit and she was born in Everton Liverpool name of Wilson. I seem to think her dad was called Isaac. I will give her a ring tomorrow and ask if she knew of this family.
I take it no one has found Mary Jane Wilson in 1891 census?

Pat................................

Hi Pat,
Here are the images of the letter from George West that were posted by me on JTRforums and the subject of Mark/Sanfran/MayBea's posts.
As was noted on the forums-the newspaper article that West refers to was a very inaccurate article that claimed MJK lived with her mother and child in Miller's Court. We all know this was not true but it is the basis for which George West based his identification of MJK with the Liverpool/Birkenhead beggar with the same name:

[Paddy]

Rosabelle

Hi,
Maybea
This cant be Rosas death as she was born in Jone 1878 and baptised in 1879? Also I found the 1877 preston death and it stated she was also born in Preston.
I will have a search in the burials for her and Robert tonight.

I rang my friend and asked about her Wilson family from Everton. Her grandfather was a Robert Wilson but she knew nothing of him as his children were put in homes when young. I got quite excited but the dates dont fit for the baker. she was born late 1930s. I'll check them out though as they could be related.
Thanks for the copy of letter Debs, I will have a search for those names and places too.

Pat............................

[Paddy]

Birkenhead Kellys

I think this is them in 1881 in Hamilton Street Police Station Birkenhead

Eliza Jane Kelly Prisoner Widow aged 50 Prostitute born Ireland
Mary A Kelly Prisoner Unmar .. 27 Prostitute born Ireland

Pat

[Paddy]

1871 The Birkenhead Two

Hi Again

It appears mum called then Jane Kelly was a prisoner in Chester Jail and Mary ann was a servant (now said to be born Birkenhead) to an Attorney at Law Robert Anderson and his wife Mary Ann In Grange Lane Birkenhead.
Robert was born USA british subject and his wife Trinidad.

Thats a shame isn't it?

Pat..................................

[Paddy]

John Ryan Retired Soldier

1891 census Birkenhead,

John Ryan born abt 1861 London, Surrey, England Visitor Retired Soldier Birkenhead, Cheshire

Visiting James Gleeson Gateman at Docks... RG12/2886 page 20

Pat

[Paddy]

Maybea....

Sorry meant to answer your question...

Yes I do think they were both present at the catholic christening.
I saw some where only one was present.

I found Roberts burial from the workhouse.
I looked for Marys death but could only find one from Olive Mount which I think was to do with the poor law or Mental health....in 1920

Pat.................

[Debra A]

I think this is them in 1881 in Hamilton Street Police Station Birkenhead

Eliza Jane Kelly Prisoner Widow aged 50 Prostitute born Ireland
Mary A Kelly Prisoner Unmar .. 27 Prostitute born Ireland

Pat

Excellent work, Pat.

[MayBea]

I think this is them in 1881 in Hamilton Street Police Station Birkenhead

Eliza Jane Kelly Prisoner Widow aged 50 Prostitute born Ireland
Mary A Kelly Prisoner Unmar .. 27 Prostitute born Ireland

But where is the child?

Why would someone, already a prostitute, be begging on the street? George West didn't mention her being a prostitute.

I also think George West specifically underlined "girl of that name" because her name was definitely Mary Jane Kelly.

Jack Wilson's mother is still a better fit all around. There obviously aren't that many if Mary A Kelly is the next best.

[MayBea]

...Yes I do think they were both present at the catholic christening.
I saw some where only one was present....

This quote below explain the standard Catholic procedure related to the paternal information. Although this answer I found is for modern baptisms, I don't see why it wouldn't have applied in the 19th Century.

It definitely indicates father doesn't have to be present except on the birth certificate. Same should apply to the mother.

Does the father of my baby need to be on the certificate if he is not part of her life?
The Baptism Certificate need[s] to reflect the same information that the Birth Certificate does. If the father is listed on the Birth Certificate, he must be listed on the Baptism Certificate.
http://www.saintfrancescabrini.org/i...of_Baptism.pdf

I couldn't find anything answering the question of parental presence for England baptism from the 19th Century. It doesn't seem to be a question anyone every asked before.

Every baptismal record has parents listed, when known. I doubt every parent listed was present at their respective child's baptism. So I don't know why you think Robert and Mary necessarily were there.