Maybrick--a Problem in Logic

[Observer]

By the way, it is very definitely a deeply complex hoax. Obviously you would have had no way of knowing this.

There you have it folks, the great arbitrator in the sky has decreed it a deeply complex hoax. Bow to his great wisdom

[Iconoclast]

I'm aware of his boast.

However, are you not on record as saying if the Diary is a hoax, then it's the greatest hoax on record?

If I'm mistaken in this assumption, I'll ask you. If the Diary is a hoax is it the greatest Hoax on record?

I don't know of hoaxes generally so I wouldn't know. If it is a hoax, I would certainly say that it was a first-rate one.

[Iconoclast]

There you have it folks, the great arbitrator in the sky has decreed it a deeply complex hoax. Bow to his great wisdom

Such irony laced throughout that one line!

If you read my brilliant Society's Pillar, you will know all of the many reasons I have outlined for why the Victorian scrapbook is actually a deeply complex document with the surface shiny appearance of utter crap.

Obviously you would have had no way of knowing this.

[Observer]

Such irony laced throughout that one line!

If you read my brilliant Society's Pillar, you will know all of the many reasons I have outlined for why the Victorian scrapbook is actually a deeply complex document with the surface shiny appearance of utter crap.

Obviously you would have had no way of knowing this.

I have no intention of reading your brilliant Society's Pillar, I've had a taste of your posts in the various Maybrick threads, that enough for me. I hear Mr Orsam has reduced it to a pile of rubble anyway.

[Abby Normal]

I have no intention of reading your brilliant Society's Pillar, I've had a taste of your posts in the various Maybrick threads, that enough for me. I hear Mr Orsam has reduced it to a pile of rubble anyway.

thats Lord Orsam to you! ; ). and yes hes has-as well as for the Diary Defenders of any ilk and Ripper nonsense in general.

[rjpalmer]

Hi Ike - Yes. The Central Liverpool Library owned The Sphere Companion, Vol. 2. Why do you find this compelling? The original library was built in the 1860s and currently holds 330,000 volumes and nearly a mile of shelf space. It's a major research library, so it's not much of a shocker that they owned it. I am more interested in whether Barrett owned it, as seemingly confirmed by Jennifer Morrison. Seriously, mate, how many volumes would you expect Barrett to have flipped through in those 1,500 meters of shelves before he gave up and went and had a pint? Would he have stuck with it for 15 mintues? 60 minutes? His mythical 'week' spent in the CLL is a nice round figure, aint it? Almost like he's codding us.

Here’s what I would say. I think it is so wildly improbable that a snippet from Crashaw could have ended up in the Maybrick transcript by any ‘normal’ means –(it must have been cribbed from The Sphere by some unsophisticated person flipping through the pages looking for inspiration)—that if you were to conclusively prove that Barrett did not own Sphere, Vol 2 prior to his taking the diary to London in April 1992, than I would abandon my beliefs, swap sides, join you in your mission, and fully admit that Barrett had no knowledge of the Diary’s creation. A working knowledge of Crashaw would have been beyond Barrett and Graham. I think Mike owned the volume and that is where he found the quote, and ‘O’ becomes ‘Oh’ during the dictation process, which is, of course, precisely how Mike described the diary’s creation. Logical, eh? Enjoy your weekend, and please hope not to see me back next week.

[caz]

Why did he have to do that? Why go to the expense, and leg work when he already had the information for Shirley Harrison from Liverpool Central Library

Er, because he was playing one diary researcher against another, and playing both against a pair of hoaxbusters! You really haven't been following the plot at all, have you?

Now read this very carefully, Observer, I will post it only once [while sporting my French beret and raincoat, just like in 'Allo 'Allo]:

Mike was trying to show Shirley that he was an ace researcher, earning his share of the royalties [royalties which he had recently put in jeopardy with his initial forgery claim in June 1994!]. At some point after Shirley had sent him off to Liverpool Library to look for the quote, he came back to her with a description of the volume he said he'd found it in. Now R.J may be sceptical that Mike ever went to the library to look, but the fact remains that Shirley was able to get confirmation that Mike had correctly identified a volume that was indeed there on the shelves. [When the authors of Ripper Diary checked several years later, there were in fact three identical volumes together on one of the relatively small number of shelves dedicated to English Literature reference works.] Had the library told Shirley they didn't have the book Mike described, he'd have had some serious explaining to do. But they did have it. So R.J can now change tack and allow for Mike going to the library after all, but only to check the book was there, so he'd have a get-out clause, in case of future need. [No need to thank me, R.J. We all need a little help now and then. ]

Meanwhile, Mike was trying to shaft Feldman any which way he could, for a number of reasons, which anyone who has been paying attention will be more than familiar with. So he taunted Feldy with his knowledge of where the quote came from, claiming it was inside knowledge that would prove the diary a modern forgery. Naturally he wasn't going to tell Feldy if he'd only just gained that knowledge from hours spent in the library! So what he really needed now was to produce his own copy of the Sphere book, and explain how it had come into his possession long before April 1992, when he took his forged diary to London. If his story was credible, and the book he produced was compatible with that story, his next forgery claim might be believed. But he screwed up royally by telling the Hillsborough story first, and when he finally handed over the book to go with it, two months later, to Alan Gray, who was by then feeding information back to hoaxbuster Mighty Mel Harris, it would - or should - have been bleedin' obvious that this was a used copy, which simply didn't live up to the story Mike had already told about it. For all we know, he may not have tracked it down until late November or early December 1994, shortly before giving it to Gray as evidence that he'd had it all along and used it when creating the diary.

All too late. He should have called himself the late Michael Barrett and left Tony Devereux out of it. Tony was only there to carry the can because he had already kicked the bucket.

Love,

Caz
X

[Iconoclast]

Here’s what I would say. I think it is so wildly improbable that a snippet from Crashaw could have ended up in the Maybrick transcript by any ‘normal’ means –(it must have been cribbed from The Sphere by some unsophisticated person flipping through the pages looking for inspiration) ...

I think you miss the point, Roger. You are remembering that I am me, yes?

I clearly do not believe that ANYONE wrote the Crashaw line into the scrapbook other than James Maybrick!

[Iconoclast]

I have no intention of reading your brilliant Society's Pillar, I've had a taste of your posts in the various Maybrick threads, that enough for me. I hear Mr Orsam has reduced it to a pile of rubble anyway.

Lord Orsam's usual long-winded response to my brilliant Society's Pillar is far from a demolition of its principles or ideas. It's simply the latest shout in the argument. When I can arse myself to shout back, I will. Anyone who reads the Good Lord's endless epistle will already know that it is far from over.

Obviously you would have had no way of knowing this.

[jmenges]

There's too much insulting of fellow Casebook members going on here leading to posts being reported.

If you all can't discuss and debate civilly we'll have no choice but to shut it down.

Play nice, or don't play at all.

Thanks

JM

[rjpalmer]

Hi Caz. I fully agree that Barrett was working all sides against one another, or, more accurately, perhaps, was simultaneously giving multiple accounts to multiple people for multiple reasons. I fail to see how this helps your attempt to get at the truth. All it really shows is that Barrett was devious. His first 'Crashaw' call seems to have been to Feldman, as a sort of threat; his next call was to Harrison (unless she delayed a good while before contacting Keith) but this time it was simply to gloat about his research skills for the reasons you cite. So here we have Mike telling different stories to different people. But within two weeks Mike was now telling Harrison what he had implied to Feldman's personal assistant back on Sept 30--that he had owned the book all along--so, reading between the lines, I figure Harrison did something to upset Mike and he was now playing hardball, just as he had been playing hardball with Feldman all along. It's all about leverage. So, it seems to me, the logical inference is that Mike was b.s.ing Harrison the first go around, and now he was getting nasty since he didn't get what he wanted. As for going to the CLL to confirm they owned the volume--a simple phone call would have sufficed, so I don't consider this observation helpful. It's not sufficiently weird that the CLL owned the book, so I draw no conclusions from this rather pedestrian fact. Now, if anyone could have confirmed that Reid of Liverpool had sold the volume...I would be forced to whistle a different tune, one, perhaps by Michael Maybrick.

Enjoy your weekend; I'll think over your post as I dig some more post-holes out in the garden. RP

[Iconoclast]

It's not sufficiently weird that the CLL owned the book, so I draw no conclusions from this rather pedestrian fact.

It's somewhat more than merely pedestrian, Roger. It serves to remind us that we can infer nothing from it! Had the book been absent, big problem for the likes of me. The fact that it wasn't absent merely reminds us that we cannot then infer or assume that Barrett already had a copy in his possession. That proposition just remains moot like so many other propositions in this twisted tale.

Now, if anyone could have confirmed that Reid of Liverpool had sold the volume...I would be forced to whistle a different tune, one, perhaps by Michael Maybrick.

Yes, and - Lord knows - how much easier if O&L had confirmed the same about Mike's claim that he bought the scrapbook from them. Clearly, I would be whistling a different tune myself.

To help me sleep. Crying.

Ike

[caz]

Not for one moment wishing to impugn Shirley Harrison's reliability, but there are several posters to these boards who knew, or at least on occasion met, Michael Barrett; I would like to know if any or all of them ever heard him 'quoting Latin phrases' at the drop of a hat.

Graham

Hi Graham,

Not me personally, but Keith Skinner was looking through copies of letters he has, which were written by Mike to Shirley and Anne. He could only find one letter where Mike uses Latin quotes and it comes right in the middle of his famous Sphere Book Adventure. The letter is undated but Shirley noted that she received it on Thursday Oct 20^th 1994, around three weeks after Mike first revealed that the quote was from 'Sancta Maria' by Crashaw. The letter is handwritten but Keith has very kindly transcribed it for us, retaining Mike's spelling throughout.

Enjoy!

Dear Shirly

No offence! even with

out a telephone can’t get

a way from you or the

Book.

Listened To your Telephone

Interview on Radio Mersyside.

Very good.

But one mistake. You stated

Mrs Hammersmith was in

the Drive of Battlecrease house.

The DRIVE [underlined twice] MAYBRICK

was refering to in the ‘Dairy”

was AIGBUTH HALL DRIVE

which is opposit Riverdale

Road. All Locals call it

the DRIVE.

Bet you don’t find

Mr Hammersith. Have you tryied

A ANAGRAM. Remberer Maybrick

And is FUNNY LITTLE GAMES.

And could you please, if

you don’t mind me asking

mention the fact that I,

and I alone Discoved,

“Jack the Rippers” indentaty.

it anoys me when

people prussem you did. Believe

me quite a few people have

said that to me. Happend,

Even after your Interview,

No less than three people

stop me on my way out,

And said “They thought I

discoved his IDENTITY. Not

you. Sorry can’t help peoples

misentrations.

As regard skipin rymes

Try This One :

Say it in you mind, as if

you a child skiping the

way one did.

JACK LIKE TO HACK

HACK HACK HACK

COME WHAT MAY [MAY underlined twice]

HE’L STRICK TO DAY


ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE.

HIS KNIFE WILL

COME DOWN

AND SO WILL THE

CROWN

SIX, SEVEN, EIGHT, NINE, TEN

AND OF HE RUNS

BACK TO HIS DEN

Horid little Rhymes

ARNT They.

Shows you how easy

It is to write them

EXEMPLIT GRATIA

Not that I did. - [underlined twice]

But just trying to put

a point over.

Remember I know the

Dairy better than any one

in the World

If you do find ANNE’s

ADRESS, I would be gratfull

If you could send it on

To me.

CURRENTA CALAMO

Love,

Mike

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Ike - Yes. The Central Liverpool Library owned The Sphere Companion, Vol. 2. Why do you find this compelling? The original library was built in the 1860s and currently holds 330,000 volumes and nearly a mile of shelf space. It's a major research library, so it's not much of a shocker that they owned it. I am more interested in whether Barrett owned it, as seemingly confirmed by Jennifer Morrison. Seriously, mate, how many volumes would you expect Barrett to have flipped through in those 1,500 meters of shelves before he gave up and went and had a pint? Would he have stuck with it for 15 mintues? 60 minutes? His mythical 'week' spent in the CLL is a nice round figure, aint it? Almost like he's codding us.

Hi R.J,

I know this was addressed to Ike, but you tell me, R.J. How long do you think Mike would have stuck with anything, in that case? How about researching, then creating the diary on his word processor, just as a for instance? A trifle longer than 60 minutes, surely, before giving it up as a lost cause and going for a pint while Anne did all the work. All the ripper books would have given him conflicting information on the murders for starters, before he even got as far as checking where James Maybrick may have been at the time. Yet you can’t see the same man spending a few days looking for something specific in the library, which we know would have been right there on the shelves, if only he thought to look in the section on English Literature reference works?

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

Hi Caz. I fully agree that Barrett was working all sides against one another, or, more accurately, perhaps, was simultaneously giving multiple accounts to multiple people for multiple reasons. I fail to see how this helps your attempt to get at the truth. All it really shows is that Barrett was devious. His first 'Crashaw' call seems to have been to Feldman, as a sort of threat; his next call was to Harrison (unless she delayed a good while before contacting Keith) but this time it was simply to gloat about his research skills for the reasons you cite. So here we have Mike telling different stories to different people. But within two weeks Mike was now telling Harrison what he had implied to Feldman's personal assistant back on Sept 30--that he had owned the book all along--so, reading between the lines, I figure Harrison did something to upset Mike and he was now playing hardball, just as he had been playing hardball with Feldman all along. It's all about leverage. So, it seems to me, the logical inference is that Mike was b.s.ing Harrison the first go around, and now he was getting nasty since he didn't get what he wanted. As for going to the CLL to confirm they owned the volume--a simple phone call would have sufficed, so I don't consider this observation helpful. It's not sufficiently weird that the CLL owned the book, so I draw no conclusions from this rather pedestrian fact. Now, if anyone could have confirmed that Reid of Liverpool had sold the volume...I would be forced to whistle a different tune, one, perhaps by Michael Maybrick.

Enjoy your weekend; I'll think over your post as I dig some more post-holes out in the garden. RP

Well, if Mike could have spent a week looking for the Crashaw quote before finally finding it at some point on Friday, September 30^th, when he immediately called Feldman to gloat about it, I imagine he’d have been equally keen to let Shirley know, so both calls were probably made around the same time, although we can’t know for certain which one he made first. The weekend came and went and on the Monday, Keith picked up a message on his phone from Shirley, so she was hardly delaying things ‘a good while’, unless you know more about her working practices than I do. When writing Ripper Diary, we tried to stick with the dated and documented or recorded material, to produce an accurate chronology of the main events, and to rely less on any undated correspondence or conversations, including what anyone may have been telling Keith from memory.

But if you prefer, you could have Mike only pretending to search in the library, then calling both Feldman and Shirley to say he knew where the quote came from.

I’ve just consulted my own timeline to refresh my memory and found the following entries for you:

Friday 30^th September 1994
Hand-written letter from SH to Keith:
The Baroness and “Miss Roques” arrived in NY, on Saturday August 10^th 1878 from L’Pool, on ? [Name of ship unclear]
‘I am hotfoot on the “intercourse” quote. Will report.’
‘Still think Billy’s childhood friends are the best bet for the oral tradition. Will pursue.’
Source: copy of letter (CAM/KS/1994)

Monday 3^rd October 1994
KS notes ansafone message from SH:
Mike seems to have found “Oh Costly Intercourse of Death” – quite by chance.
Is in the Sphere Companion To English Literature Vol 6 (MB thinks) – did not even make a note of it!
Source: copy of notes by KS, 3^rd - 12^th October 1994 (CAM/KS/1994)

Thursday 6^th October 1994
Fax sent to SH by L’Pool City Library, with page from Sphere volume containing ‘O costly…’ quote.
Source: copy of fax (CAM/KS/1994)

Friday 7^th October 1994
KS Diary Note:
PF telephoned – MB had been asking everybody at Liverpool Library whether they knew source for ‘O costly…’
Carol Emmas supports this.
Source: copy of fax from KS to PF, 29^th January 1997, including summary by Martin Howells, received by KS on 24^th October 1995 (CAM/KS/1995)

Tuesday 11^th October 1994
KS conversation with SH:
MB v. upset (w/b Sept 26^th 1994) by remarks in p/back about him being alcoholic…determined to do something serious about this he spends week in L’pool library trying to find source of O Costly Intercourse (p231 of Shirley’s p/back)…
Finds it but does not make a note of it. Phones Duocrave on Fri 30^th Sept…
Around this time his mother has read p/back – upset – throws MB out of house
Mon Oct 3^rd – MB phones Shirley – Shirley tells MB to go back to library and find the reference… By Oct 6^th Shirley has reference.
Source: copy of notes by KS, 3^rd - 12^th October 1994 (CAM/KS/1994)

Hope these help!

Love,

Caz
X