Maybrick--a Problem in Logic

[Ozzy]

Morning Graham - roll on June 17, eh???

Back in 1972, no-one would have had any reason to look for any letters on Kelly's wall. The reason to look only came twenty years later when Bongo produced the scrapbook and the scrapbook told us that "An initial here, an initial there, will tell of the whoring mother". And there they were, there all the time, there in 1992, in 1972, in 1899, and - clearly - in 1888.

The Maybrick case was certainly being talked about in 1972, but for very different reasons. In 1970, the 'Wicked Women' TV series featured a haunting version of Florence's story which I have seen but for the life of me cannot now track down. It was particular spooky to watch James Maybrick as portrayed in 1970, long before he would be 'in the dock' himself for other crimes. It was released on March 14, 1970, incidentally - just three months or so before the wonderful hot summer which followed and the greatest World Cup Final of them all.

Cheers,

Ike

Somebody has uploaded the Florence Maybrick Wicked Women episode, along with some more episodes in the same series on the same channel, to Youtube today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0_hqi6IqL4

edit
The same channel also uploaded an episode on Mary Pearcey today. It's part of a series called Lady Killers. Introduced by Robert Morley.
I knew about the strange ad she wanted put in the Madrid newspapers - MECP last wish of MEW have not betrayed. In this TV episode she first requests what the capital of Spain is. I don't recall ever reading that before when I've read about the case.

[rjpalmer]

From Keith Skinner's notes

MB says he didn't take diary seriously at first. Never heard of 'Poisoned Life of Mrs Maybrick' before SH mentioned it to him. Says TD was dead before MB connected James Maybrick to diary. Says he concentrated on ripper stuff first, not thinking of Liverpool angle until later.
Before SH got involved, he had checked ripper books such as Rumbelow, Paul Harrison, A-Z, Stephen Knight. But not John Morrison (when asked specifically by SH).

Note to self: I take this to mean John Morrison’s obscure thirty-nine page pamphlet, “Jimmy Kelly's Year of Ripper Murders 1888: Marie Slain by Killer”

Odd. Why was Harrison concerned about this particular pamphlet. Should I be concerned? Intriguing.

[Yabs]

Blood splatter onto woodgrain.
maybe the woodgrain even helped create the illusion of the M

EDIT:
(just realised I’ve posted in the wrong thread after posting, this post was intended for RJ’s thread regarding the letters)

[Iconoclast]

I wonder if Bongo picked up on this and chose 'O costly...' accordingly. Pity he never mentioned it really.

Hi Caz,

If he did, then I bet he also picked-up on the picture on the wall at 44.00 which is rather eerily reminiscent of a certain Mary Jane Kelly death scene. Sort of.

Ike

[caz]

Hi Erobitha,

A researcher far more equipped for that appellation than I has tracked down the episode on YouTube (which is ridiculous because I hunted for about a minute on YouTube - who needs more than a minute to find something on YouTube, for goodness sake????????????????).

Anyway, courtesy of One More In The Know Than I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3U...ature=youtu.be

The Stone Angels episode on Doctor Who was so terrifying that a young Izzy Iconoclast never watched the programme again. She turned 21 on Monday (two days ago) and still refuses to watch the programme. I feel as nervous about watching this version of Florrie's tale for some reason. It's just so creepy!

Ike

Afternoon Ike, Erobitha,

I just watched this - and have a feeling I may have seen it back when I would have been sixteen. The story would have meant next to nothing to me in 1970.

Towards the end, when Sir James has just shuffled off, Maybrick's doctor tells Florie [played by the very lovely Nicola Pagett] that Mrs Pilbeam [?] used the phrase: "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned", but she got it wrong and the original words were by Congreve, not Shakespeare. The doctor adds that James could have told her that, as he had an eye "for an old quotation".

I wonder if Bongo picked up on this and chose 'O costly...' accordingly. Pity he never mentioned it really.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hell_..._woman_scorned

Love,

Caz
X

[Yabs]

Some additional media that would be interesting to see or hear..


BBC Radio 4
Broadcast 13th February 1993 repeated 17th February.
Age to Age
(Synopsis)
The trial of Florence Maybrick in 1889 was a sensational affair. What took place in the courtroom of St George's Hall in Liverpool helped to secure rights for the accused that we take for granted today. In this Age to Age special, starting a new series, Christopher Cook and David Foster recall the case of Florence Maybrick , which was responsible for the setting up of the Court of Criminal Appeal.



BBC Radio 4
Broadcast 10th June 1992
Victorian Hit Man
(Synopsis)
One hundred years ago composer
Michael Maybrick , writing as Stephen Adams , hit the royalty jackpot - he published The Holy City. To this day it is the most enduring of Victorian religious parlour songs. Roger Wilkes tells the story of Maybrick, the man and his music. Producer Diana Stenson



BBC2 television
Broadcast 1st August 1965
Jury Room: The Friendless Lady
(Synopsis)
by Harry Green.
The husband dead by arsenical poisoning.... a lover... the wife on trial for murder or adultery?



BBC Radio4
Broadcast 18th November 1969
Trial for Murder on Assize
(Synopsis)
Edgar Lustgarten reconstructs six famous murder trials from the Assize Courts of provincial England
2: The Trial of Mrs Maybrick Liverpool 1889


There are other broadcasts but they are from much earlier.

[StevenOwl]

Hi Erobitha,

A researcher far more equipped for that appellation than I has tracked down the episode on YouTube (which is ridiculous because I hunted for about a minute on YouTube - who needs more than a minute to find something on YouTube, for goodness sake????????????????).

Anyway, courtesy of One More In The Know Than I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3U...ature=youtu.be

The Stone Angels episode on Doctor Who was so terrifying that a young Izzy Iconoclast never watched the programme again. She turned 21 on Monday (two days ago) and still refuses to watch the programme. I feel as nervous about watching this version of Florrie's tale for some reason. It's just so creepy!

Ike

Thanks for the link Ike - brilliant find.

[Iconoclast]

If it the same episode I watched, if any hoaxer was watching it for inspiration we would have Florence being English and James working as a stock broker. Talk about inaccuracies - that is well worth a watch alone for how to twist facts for dramatic purposes.

Hi Erobitha,

A researcher far more equipped for that appellation than I has tracked down the episode on YouTube (which is ridiculous because I hunted for about a minute on YouTube - who needs more than a minute to find something on YouTube, for goodness sake????????????????).

Anyway, courtesy of One More In The Know Than I: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l_3U...ature=youtu.be

The Stone Angels episode on Doctor Who was so terrifying that a young Izzy Iconoclast never watched the programme again. She turned 21 on Monday (two days ago) and still refuses to watch the programme. I feel as nervous about watching this version of Florrie's tale for some reason. It's just so creepy!

Ike

[jmenges]

Hi

A question for some of the more knowledgeable proponents of the Ripper case, you know Mr Palmer, Simon Wood, (even though I believe JTR was a single individual) you know individuals of that ilk.

At what stage in the saga was it suggested that the Ripper murdered five women, and five women only? We know the Macnagten memorandum didn't emerge until 1959, but did anyone else put forward the case for the five canonicals prior to that?

F.P. Wensley said in his memoirs that there were "officially only five, but possibly six" victims.

There might be more examples using "five victims only", like Griffiths, but I've not looked yet.

Edit- Wensley wrote "officially five" in 1931.

JM

[Observer]

Hi

A question for some of the more knowledgeable proponents of the Ripper case, you know Mr Palmer, Simon Wood, (even though I believe JTR was a single individual) you know individuals of that ilk.

At what stage in the saga was it suggested that the Ripper murdered five women, and five women only? We know the Macnagten memorandum didn't emerge until 1959, but did anyone else put forward the case for the five canonicals prior to that?

[caz]

I have no desire to engage further with “Caz” Brown or any other Diary supporter, but let me state a couple of objective facts, without involving myself in any additional debate, because my time here is wasted.

I told R.J he was wasted here, only the other day, so I see he agrees with me about something at long last.

19^th Century tin matchboxes were of different sizes and some were quite large. There is no reason to believe Eddowes' was the tiny matchbox theorized above.

At the bottom of this post is a Bryant and May matchbox that is 6 ¼” long. The one next to it (also Bryant & May) is roughly 3” x 2” and quite deep. I have seen others of UK origin that are in the 3 ½” x 2 ¾” range, and another that is 4” x 6”.

It might also be noted that there was a common type of tin matchbox that was very large because it originally held 10 or 12 smaller pasteboard matchboxes inside of it. The tin kept the smaller boxes free from moisture and safe from fire in case of accidental ignition. They are still described as "matchboxes." We don’t know which type Eddowes was carrying or the name of the manufacturer.

Below is a link to an American matchbox from roughly 1860-1880 that measures a whopping 8½ ” x 4½” x 3.”

https://www.ebay.com/i/303549704540?chn=ps

Concerning the suggestion that the cotton strips were originally in Kate Eddowes’ matchbox--I am not insisting this. Read my original post. The cotton could have been cotton balls, or the press could have simply got it wrong. I am merely theorizing why the original press report claimed the tin match box contained ‘cotton,’ while, at the mortuary, the box was listed it as empty.

Yes, very convincing. I expect Kate secreted about her person one of the biggest match boxes known to man at the time, so it would have at least the capacity for a load of fresh [cotton] balls for first aid purposes [or removing her make-up every night perhaps?], if not quite enough space for the dozen sanitary towel sized - er - sanitary towels, made from white rag. [Has Trevor M pinched R.J's username, I'm wondering?]

If R.J would care to read an earlier post of his on this subject, he might see some 'very good clues' he left for himself, which could have cleared up his confusion.

He mentioned the following:

twelve pieces of white rag, some slightly blood-stained

a piece of red flannel containing pins & needles

A small metal button.

A common metal thimble.

R.J even suggested the following: 'As you can see, the press claimed the box contained cotton, but by the time it was described at the mortuary it is listed as "empty." Maybe the cotton was lost or thrown away, or the report was simply inaccurate? Or a policeman, inspecting the box, tossed the cotton to one side and it became separated from the match box?'

Yet now we are expected to consider that the match box could have been a particularly large one, to accommodate cotton balls, which were removed and then got lost or thrown away, or even tossed to one side, and were therefore never itemised, leaving this capacious tin box empty - or to accommodate the dozen pieces of white rag, some slightly blood-stained [Kate's sanitary rags or R.J's first aid requisites], which were not lost or tossed, but carefully itemised, leaving the same capacious tin box empty.

Wouldn't it be much simpler to ask why Kate, who had been a walking sewing basket, with her pins, her needles, her button and her thimble, didn't have any sewing cotton - thread - on her? Or did she? If she kept it in a normal sized match box, it could very easily have got lost, or thrown away, or tossed to one side, between recording the item initially as a 'tin match box containing cotton', and then as '1 Tin MatchBox, empty'.

Simples, and I suspect they weren't the only ones to lose the thread.

And then if Mike Barrett had wanted his 'Sir Jim' to open a tin match box in the dark [with or without any cotton thread in it] and curse upon finding it devoid of matches, he could have made it so, without proving himself a silly faker in the process.

This should tell any reasonable person that the diary dates to after the late 1980s, and lo and behold, Barrett owned a book that lists the “one tin match box, empty”—Paul Harrison’s book, page 67.

How do I know Barrett was familiar with this passage? Because Barrett mentions page 67 of Harrison’s book in his research notes—and more than once. (see page 14 of Barrett’s notes, which can be found both here and on Howard Brown’s site). This will also tell you what Mike was thinking about when he wrote about “Abberline” (sic) holding an item back.

It was the mustard tin containing pawn tickets--also mentioned on page 67. Barrett suggests "Abberline" (sic: McWilliam) held a ticket back. Of interest is that Paul Harrison is the only source that lists Eddowes' mustard tin as part of the complete inventory of her items. He also lists it directly next to "one tin match box, empty."

As I haven't got Paul Harrison's book, I will take R.J's word for it that he lists it as "one tin match box, empty", and not as Martin Fido does, as: '1 Tin MatchBox, empty'.

But I do have my own copy of Mike's research notes, and while he pondered the question of whether the 'very good clue' could have been a third pawn ticket Maybrick had taken from the mustard tin, which Abberline kept out of the papers 'hoping that the Ripper would make the mistake of redeaming [sic] the ticket', Mike himself adds ('although I have to admit this is unlikely'). He goes on: 'Maybrick says he has left a clue. In spite of what is written about the pawn ticket, I think the clue he left was his initial.'

But Mike decided to leave it much vaguer than that when he WRot his DAiry, referring only to a 'very good clue' left at the scene. He could have had soooo much more fun with this, if only he'd seen R.J's lovely BRYANT & MAY tin match boxes, in all their glory, sporting Florie's nickname for James, no less. Mike could have capitalised on this - in both senses - and had Maybrick leave his name right there - MAY - for all the blind fools to see, just like he capitalised on the words of the Punch cartoon.

Bongo missed a trick.

And so, I suspect, has R.J.

This has nothing to do with being a diary 'supporter'. It is about whether Mike Barrett, and others once named by him, faked it in 1992. If RJ, among others, remains 100% certain in his own mind, that this is the only possible conclusion, based on all the evidence he has seen and heard to date, then what both Keith and I simply cannot understand is why it would bother him that not everyone agrees? Why 'engage' with the subject for this long, and with those who continue to express doubts about Mike's forgery claims, if he considers us to be either as thick as mince or thick as thieves?

Love,

Caz
X

[Abby Normal]

I have no desire to engage further with “Caz” Brown or any other Diary supporter, but let me state a couple of objective facts, without involving myself in any additional debate, because my time here is wasted.

19^th Century tin matchboxes were of different sizes and some were quite large. There is no reason to believe Eddowes' was the tiny matchbox theorized above.

At the bottom of this post is a Bryant and May matchbox that is 6 ¼” long. The one next to it (also Bryant & May) is roughly 3” x 2” and quite deep. I have seen others of UK origin that are in the 3 ½” x 2 ¾” range, and another that is 4” x 6”.

It might also be noted that there was a common type of tin matchbox that was very large because it originally held 10 or 12 smaller pasteboard matchboxes inside of it. The tin kept the smaller boxes free from moisture and safe from fire in case of accidental ignition. They are still described as "matchboxes." We don’t know which type Eddowes was carrying or the name of the manufacturer.

Below is a link to an American matchbox from roughly 1860-1880 that measures a whopping 8½ ” x 4½” x 3.”

https://www.ebay.com/i/303549704540?chn=ps

Concerning the suggestion that the cotton strips were originally in Kate Eddowes’ matchbox--I am not insisting this. Read my original post. The cotton could have been cotton balls, or the press could have simply got it wrong. I am merely theorizing why the original press report claimed the tin match box contained ‘cotton,’ while, at the mortuary, the box was listed it as empty.

I have talked to a number of ‘street’ people over the years, and it is not uncommon for them to carry mini first-aid kits, and often these are tins. I used to carry one in my own backpack made from an old Band-Aid tin. Cotton strips—or cotton balls—would be useful for cuts, blisters, etc., that one suffers while tramping around. The cotton rags in Eddowes’ possession need not have been for feminine hygiene; they could have been small, thin bandages, for wrapping around blistered toes, etc. Their size was not listed by the police.

It is instructive to look at how the matchbox is described in two different editions of Donald Rumbelow’s classic study of the Whitechapel Murders.

In the 1975 edition, “The Complete Jack the Ripper,” Rumbelow describes it as a “tin match box containing cotton.” (pg. 44)

In the 1988 edition, “Jack the Ripper: The Complete Casebook,” he now describes it as an “empty tin match box.” (pg. 64)

What happened between 1975 and 1988 to make Rumbelow change the description?

Answer: Eddowes’ inventory list was made available for the first time. Before that, Don Rumbelow had to rely on the 1888 news article.

Just as a hoaxer would.

This should tell any reasonable person that the diary dates to after the late 1980s, and lo and behold, Barrett owned a book that lists the “one tin match box, empty”—Paul Harrison’s book, page 67.

How do I know Barrett was familiar with this passage? Because Barrett mentions page 67 of Harrison’s book in his research notes—and more than once. (see page 14 of Barrett’s notes, which can be found both here and on Howard Brown’s site). This will also tell you what Mike was thinking about when he wrote about “Abberline” (sic) holding an item back.

It was the mustard tin containing pawn tickets--also mentioned on page 67. Barrett suggests "Abberline" (sic: McWilliam) held a ticket back. Of interest is that Paul Harrison is the only source that lists Eddowes' mustard tin as part of the complete inventory of her items. He also lists it directly next to "one tin match box, empty."

Now that I have produced three Victorian tin matchboxes that could have easily held 12 strips of cotton rag of unknown size, perhaps one of our resident experts on tin boxes will produce 1 Victorian/Edwardian biscuit tin that could have held a certain oversized black ledger. If it has a hermetically sealed lid connected to a vacuum pump to prevent chemical decomposition, so much the better.

great post RJ
and yes give it up and save your sanity-its pointless.

[Abby Normal]

Hello Abby,

I am not quite sure how I feel about that. Do you watch in a manly way?

c.d.

lol. nope. giddy as a school girl

[caz]

Hello Caz,

Generally, I am quite proud of myself for my minimal lack of involvement in this thread and I have to say that I am astonished by how much time and effort other posters put into it. The one time I attempted to make a substantive contribution to the thread I got ripped a new one by none other than Lord Orsam himself. I take it as a badge of honor.

I can't help but agree with you there, c.d, concerning how much time and effort other posters have put into it, if they are 100% certain, like Lord Awesome and Mandy Rice-J Palmer, that Mike Barrett was behind the diary.

I can't be arsed to do a substantive evaluation of the pros and cons of the diary. Love that expression by the way. One of the best things I have learned on these boards in addition to "Big Girls Blouse" which I have you to thank for.

Why, thank you kindly. I never thought of it that way before, but your own expression - 'pros and cons' - pretty much sums it up for me, if Keith Skinner is one of the professional diary researchers, while Mike Barrett was one of the conmen who succeeded in persuading so many armchair detectives around here that he had a hand in creating it.

I do have an interest in the "initials" though as I can actually see a likeness of them on the wall which makes them intriguing.

As for Barrett and a hoax I will just say that I like to watch Antiques Roadshow. Yes, yes I know but I watch it in a manly way, scratching myself and smashing beer cans into my head. The one thing that it has taught me is the critical importance of provenance. So when I look at the provenance for the diary I kind of shake my head and say well that ain't so good. So I lean towards the hoax camp but try to keep an open mind and doubt I will ever become a fanatic in my opinion one way or the other.

I am actually reading Shirley Harrison's book right now. Kind of a slow go.

c.d.

Well, ever since 1992, a lot of heads have been similarly shaking and saying the provenance was pretty rubbish. Then in 1994, nine months after Shirley’s book came out, Mike said he forged the diary, which neatly resolved the question of provenance – except for the handful of us who didn’t, and still don’t believe Mike, and see no resolution, and nothing remotely neat about any of his claims to know the diary's origins.

We few, we happy few, also try to keep an open mind, so you are not quite alone. I lean firmly towards the hoax camp, but while I don’t personally believe James Maybrick held the pen, and there is no evidence he killed anyone, I do wonder what a good provenance would look like, and how it would ever be established for such an artefact. The private jottings of a Victorian murderer would hardly have emerged in 1992, in the scrapbook, together with a complete and verifiable record of its ownership and whereabouts going back to 1889. So even if the old book was 'liberated' from Maybrick's old home, and no living person had known it was there [or would ever admit to planting it there], I'm at a loss to know how its presence could be proved to everyone's satisfaction, even if the person who liberated it finally wanted to get it off his chest and say so.

Love,

Caz
X

[rjpalmer]

I have no desire to engage further with “Caz” Brown or any other Diary supporter, but let me state a couple of objective facts, without involving myself in any additional debate, because my time here is wasted.

19^th Century tin matchboxes were of different sizes and some were quite large. There is no reason to believe Eddowes' was the tiny matchbox theorized above.

At the bottom of this post is a Bryant and May matchbox that is 6 ¼” long. The one next to it (also Bryant & May) is roughly 3” x 2” and quite deep. I have seen others of UK origin that are in the 3 ½” x 2 ¾” range, and another that is 4” x 6”.

It might also be noted that there was a common type of tin matchbox that was very large because it originally held 10 or 12 smaller pasteboard matchboxes inside of it. The tin kept the smaller boxes free from moisture and safe from fire in case of accidental ignition. They are still described as "matchboxes." We don’t know which type Eddowes was carrying or the name of the manufacturer.

Below is a link to an American matchbox from roughly 1860-1880 that measures a whopping 8½ ” x 4½” x 3.”

https://www.ebay.com/i/303549704540?chn=ps

Concerning the suggestion that the cotton strips were originally in Kate Eddowes’ matchbox--I am not insisting this. Read my original post. The cotton could have been cotton balls, or the press could have simply got it wrong. I am merely theorizing why the original press report claimed the tin match box contained ‘cotton,’ while, at the mortuary, the box was listed it as empty.

I have talked to a number of ‘street’ people over the years, and it is not uncommon for them to carry mini first-aid kits, and often these are tins. I used to carry one in my own backpack made from an old Band-Aid tin. Cotton strips—or cotton balls—would be useful for cuts, blisters, etc., that one suffers while tramping around. The cotton rags in Eddowes’ possession need not have been for feminine hygiene; they could have been small, thin bandages, for wrapping around blistered toes, etc. Their size was not listed by the police.

It is instructive to look at how the matchbox is described in two different editions of Donald Rumbelow’s classic study of the Whitechapel Murders.

In the 1975 edition, “The Complete Jack the Ripper,” Rumbelow describes it as a “tin match box containing cotton.” (pg. 44)

In the 1988 edition, “Jack the Ripper: The Complete Casebook,” he now describes it as an “empty tin match box.” (pg. 64)

What happened between 1975 and 1988 to make Rumbelow change the description?

Answer: Eddowes’ inventory list was made available for the first time. Before that, Don Rumbelow had to rely on the 1888 news article.

Just as a hoaxer would.

This should tell any reasonable person that the diary dates to after the late 1980s, and lo and behold, Barrett owned a book that lists the “one tin match box, empty”—Paul Harrison’s book, page 67.

How do I know Barrett was familiar with this passage? Because Barrett mentions page 67 of Harrison’s book in his research notes—and more than once. (see page 14 of Barrett’s notes, which can be found both here and on Howard Brown’s site). This will also tell you what Mike was thinking about when he wrote about “Abberline” (sic) holding an item back.

It was the mustard tin containing pawn tickets--also mentioned on page 67. Barrett suggests "Abberline" (sic: McWilliam) held a ticket back. Of interest is that Paul Harrison is the only source that lists Eddowes' mustard tin as part of the complete inventory of her items. He also lists it directly next to "one tin match box, empty."

Now that I have produced three Victorian tin matchboxes that could have easily held 12 strips of cotton rag of unknown size, perhaps one of our resident experts on tin boxes will produce 1 Victorian/Edwardian biscuit tin that could have held a certain oversized black ledger. If it has a hermetically sealed lid connected to a vacuum pump to prevent chemical decomposition, so much the better.