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  • Maybrick--a Problem in Logic

    The diary notwithstanding, there are other reasons to dismiss Maybrick’s candidacy as JTR. In a previous post (found under “General Suspect Discussion") I noted the likelihood of the killer having no private place to perform the killings—hence his use of public streets and alleys. One could argue that this applies to Maybrick—his home was not private, and he lived in another town.

    However, Maybrick was a businessman of means. He could have easily afforded a cheap flat in the Whitechapel area. With his money and affluent appearance, he could have lured prostitutes there, and performed his depravities in privacy. Maybrick was intelligent and educated, with no indication of psychosis or delusion. His survival instincts would have been well intact. As JTR, if he were discovered in the act, he would have been tried and hanged, or attacked by vigilantes. He had to know this. Why take unnecessary chances?

    And how did Maybrick get JTR’s apparent strong working knowledge of human anatomy? How could he have such high comfort level performing mutilations/organ removals on the unfamiliar streets of the East End? The level of comfort and familiarity displayed by JTR, both in the Whitechapel setting, and in the area of anatomy, does not match our knowledge of Maybrick and his life.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eliza View Post
    The diary notwithstanding, there are other reasons to dismiss Maybrick’s candidacy as JTR. In a previous post (found under “General Suspect Discussion") I noted the likelihood of the killer having no private place to perform the killings—hence his use of public streets and alleys. One could argue that this applies to Maybrick—his home was not private, and he lived in another town.
    Eliza,

    Quite apart from the rather obvious - that you have built your categorical contradiction of Maybrick's candidacy on a host of non-categorical assumptions which cannot be checked (therefore they are just suppositions) - you have also rather illogically started with the premise that the Victorian scrapbook is a reason in and of itself to dismiss Maybrick (when in reality it is the very and only reason he is ruled in as a candidate).

    When you called this new thread 'Maybrick - a Problem in Logic', were you aware of the irony?

    Cheers,

    Ike
    Iconoclast
    Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

    Comment


    • #3
      Knowledge of a district can’t be checked but can be surmised. It’s the same with evaluating the risk and being able to escape into a lodging house bolt hole, and relative knowledge of anatomy.

      One answer to the latter - Freemasonry. Is he a Freemason?

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Eliza View Post
        The diary notwithstanding, there are other reasons to dismiss Maybrick’s candidacy as JTR. In a previous post (found under “General Suspect Discussion") I noted the likelihood of the killer having no private place to perform the killings—hence his use of public streets and alleys. One could argue that this applies to Maybrick—his home was not private, and he lived in another town.

        However, Maybrick was a businessman of means. He could have easily afforded a cheap flat in the Whitechapel area. With his money and affluent appearance, he could have lured prostitutes there, and performed his depravities in privacy. Maybrick was intelligent and educated, with no indication of psychosis or delusion. His survival instincts would have been well intact. As JTR, if he were discovered in the act, he would have been tried and hanged, or attacked by vigilantes. He had to know this. Why take unnecessary chances?

        And how did Maybrick get JTR’s apparent strong working knowledge of human anatomy? How could he have such high comfort level performing mutilations/organ removals on the unfamiliar streets of the East End? The level of comfort and familiarity displayed by JTR, both in the Whitechapel setting, and in the area of anatomy, does not match our knowledge of Maybrick and his life.
        Hi Eliza

        Of course you're right that Maybrick is a complete non-starter as a suspect, but I don't agree with your analysis. Maybrick could have rented a flat - yes, but ideally the Ripper would have wanted to maintain anonymity. Renting a flat means interacting with people on a regular basis, people who will notice things, so it's not applicable in my opinion that wealth would rule him out as the Ripper.

        Why take unnecessary chances? Well, how do we know they were unnecessary to him?

        Comfort in the streets of Whitechapel - if we're theorizing that he's the ripper, why could he not have frequented Whitechapel for a long time before striking? And the level of knowledge of human anatomy is not agreed upon.

        Comment


        • #5
          Not for one instant do I believe that Maybrick was the Ripper, but I think it should be mentioned that well prior to the murders he did live and work in Whitechapel, for one Gustavus Witt if memory serves.

          Graham
          We are suffering from a plethora of surmise, conjecture and hypothesis. - Sherlock Holmes, The Adventure Of Silver Blaze

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Eliza View Post
            The diary notwithstanding, there are other reasons to dismiss Maybrick’s candidacy as JTR. In a previous post (found under “General Suspect Discussion") I noted the likelihood of the killer having no private place to perform the killings—hence his use of public streets and alleys. One could argue that this applies to Maybrick—his home was not private, and he lived in another town.

            However, Maybrick was a businessman of means. He could have easily afforded a cheap flat in the Whitechapel area. With his money and affluent appearance, he could have lured prostitutes there, and performed his depravities in privacy. Maybrick was intelligent and educated, with no indication of psychosis or delusion. His survival instincts would have been well intact. As JTR, if he were discovered in the act, he would have been tried and hanged, or attacked by vigilantes. He had to know this. Why take unnecessary chances?

            And how did Maybrick get JTR’s apparent strong working knowledge of human anatomy? How could he have such high comfort level performing mutilations/organ removals on the unfamiliar streets of the East End? The level of comfort and familiarity displayed by JTR, both in the Whitechapel setting, and in the area of anatomy, does not match our knowledge of Maybrick and his life.
            The answer's simple: because a couple of hoaxers took a local cause célèbre and tied it into the Whitechapel Murders for fun and profit.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

              Hi Eliza

              Of course you're right that Maybrick is a complete non-starter as a suspect, but I don't agree with your analysis. Maybrick could have rented a flat - yes, but ideally the Ripper would have wanted to maintain anonymity. Renting a flat means interacting with people on a regular basis, people who will notice things, so it's not applicable in my opinion that wealth would rule him out as the Ripper.

              Why take unnecessary chances? Well, how do we know they were unnecessary to him?

              Comfort in the streets of Whitechapel - if we're theorizing that he's the ripper, why could he not have frequented Whitechapel for a long time before striking? And the level of knowledge of human anatomy is not agreed upon.
              Taking victims back home has never put off other serial killers. Most don't seem to care too much about attracting attention, case in point being Dennis Nilsen, who I believe had been flushing human remains down the toilet, nothing was said or done until they eventually became blocked. Before than he had been burning remains in the garden. People around him paid him no attention, the smell must have been awful!

              Though I suspect that in this case, even if he did have his own place, I doubt the victims would not have come back there with him as they conducted their business on the street in dark corners. I don't think they could have been persuaded to have gone with him. In all the cases I think it was they who convinced JtR to come with them, leading him ultimately to their murder sites.

              As to Maybrick being JtR, I just don't see it at all. Hats off to Iconoclast, you make a pretty convincing case but its all a bit too good to be true as far as I am concerned. He just does not fit the bill. If it were not for the diary, he would never in a million years be considered a likely candidate. Even if for some illogical reason someone pointed the finger at him.

              Tristan

              Comment


              • #8
                Blame Harry Dam.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Losmandris View Post

                  As to Maybrick being JtR, I just don't see it at all. Hats off to Iconoclast, you make a pretty convincing case but its all a bit too good to be true as far as I am concerned. He just does not fit the bill. If it were not for the diary, he would never in a million years be considered a likely candidate. Even if for some illogical reason someone pointed the finger at him.

                  Tristan
                  Well hats off to you young (random guess) man (random guess) for saying hats off to me on that point (or frankly any other point - I don't get many compliments so I accept them in whatever form they come). I do so warm to your theme, in particular to the notion that "it's all a bit too good to be true" - not least because "it's all a bit too good to be true" normally means that something is rather refreshingly true. Amen to that, your graces.

                  And you're right that without the scrapbook (and the watch), he would never have appeared as a candidate. But - you know what - that's what evidence does. Just ask Colin Pitchfork.

                  And once again, the mighty mind of the Great Iconoclast eases the nation's burden! (Even if he did have to spell check 'burden' before he finished typing.)

                  Ike
                  Inspitational Motivational Speaker, Heartthrob, and Mesmeric Troubadour
                  Iconoclast
                  Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

                    Hi Eliza

                    Of course you're right that Maybrick is a complete non-starter as a suspect, but I don't agree with your analysis. Maybrick could have rented a flat - yes, but ideally the Ripper would have wanted to maintain anonymity. Renting a flat means interacting with people on a regular basis, people who will notice things, so it's not applicable in my opinion that wealth would rule him out as the Ripper.

                    Why take unnecessary chances? Well, how do we know they were unnecessary to him?

                    Comfort in the streets of Whitechapel - if we're theorizing that he's the ripper, why could he not have frequented Whitechapel for a long time before striking? And the level of knowledge of human anatomy is not agreed upon.
                    The Ripper would have had a better chance at maintaining anonymity by creating a false name/persona and renting a private place, than by subduing, murdering, mutilating, and removing his victims' organs on public, well-travelled, well-patrolled streets. It was easier to maintain anonymity at that time period.

                    One of the most striking things about the JTR killings is the extreme risks the killer took. Either JTR was disordered/psychotic in his thought process, and didn't care about risk or believed himself invincible--or he was a man with no choice but to take these risks.

                    Maybrick was not psychotic; and he had choices other than taking such risks. I think a shrewd man like Maybrick would be more risk-averse.
                    Last edited by Eliza; 11-01-2019, 07:37 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Eliza View Post
                      Either JTR was disordered/psychotic in his thought process, and didn't care about risk or believed himself invincible--or he was a man with no choice but to take these risks.
                      Or he was a killer with a spectacle in mind.

                      A spectacle killer is a serial killer whose MO, by conscious effort, is spectacular as would be, by nature, those of a mass murderer.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eliza View Post
                        Maybrick was not psychotic; and he had choices other than taking such risks. I think a shrewd man like Maybrick would be more risk-averse.
                        Yes indeed, Eliza, even double-dosing on the old arsenic would have little effect on a sober man of business such as Maybrick. It clearly wasn't he, then.
                        Iconoclast
                        Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Ike - In Lord Orsam's absence, do you have any compulsion to "fact check" Post #5?

                          Let me give it a try, though it really would have been better coming from you, as my earlier contribution (the 'Evemy' affair) was looked on with disdain.

                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Gustave Witt.JPG Views:	0 Size:	18.8 KB ID:	726500


                          As I understand it, Maybrick worked for Gustave Witt in Liverpool in the early to mid 1870s, in the now infamous Knowsley Buildings, but never in the East End. Maybrick stayed on in Liverpool, Witt later moved to London (Camberwell) and had an office north of Tower Hill.

                          Much to Feldman's delight, this office was a ten minute walk to Aldgate, the entryway into the East End, but other than a letter showing that Maybrick still did occasional work for Witt back in Liverpool, there is no evidence of Maybrick visiting him there, let alone living or working in the East End.

                          That a Liverpool businessman would have a partner that moved to the backwaters of Central London is a shocker, I know, but such things evidently happened. RP

                          Last edited by rjpalmer; 11-02-2019, 01:26 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                            Hi Ike - In Lord Orsam's absence, do you have any compulsion to "fact check" Post #5?

                            Let me give it a try, though it really would have been better coming from you, as my earlier contribution (the 'Evemy' affair) was looked on with disdain.

                            Click image for larger version Name:	Gustave Witt.JPG Views:	0 Size:	18.8 KB ID:	726500


                            As I understand it, Maybrick worked for Gustave Witt in Liverpool in the early to mid 1870s, in the now infamous Knowsley Buildings, but never in the East End. Maybrick stayed on in Liverpool, Witt later moved to London (Camberwell) and had an office north of Tower Hill.

                            Much to Feldman's delight, this office was a ten minute walk to Aldgate, the entryway into the East End, but other than a letter showing that Maybrick still did occasional work for Witt back in Liverpool, there is no evidence of Maybrick visiting him there, let alone living or working in the East End.

                            That a Liverpool businessman would have a partner that moved to the backwaters of Central London is a shocker, I know, but such things evidently happened. RP
                            Hi Roger,

                            There is absolutely no doubt that there is no evidence whatsoever that Maybrick actually "did live and work in Whitechapel, for one Gustavus Witt if memory serves". I think Graham wasn't worrying too much about the final accuracy of his statement but - rather - that he meant that there was some evidence that Maybrick had a very direct link with the East End through his doing Witt's "London work". The likelihood that Maybrick at least visited Witt's office - so close as it was to the temptations of Aldgate - cannot be easily ignored by those of an aristocratic crust.

                            Although his work for Witt may very well have only ever been completed in Liverpool, I would certainly cite the mere fact of it as further evidence pointing towards Maybrick as Jack (as opposed to either pointing away from Maybrick or even being neutral on the issue) which - when combined with the numerous other links with Jack - make this statistician's eyes (for one) weep. That was one statistician amongst the many, of course, not one eye amongst my two.

                            Hope this help.

                            Ike

                            Iconoclast
                            Soldier of Fortune, Man of Peace, Destroyer of Images, Nice Guy, Genius

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                              Hi Ike - In Lord Orsam's absence, do you have any compulsion to "fact check" Post #5?

                              Let me give it a try, though it really would have been better coming from you, as my earlier contribution (the 'Evemy' affair) was looked on with disdain.

                              Click image for larger version Name:	Gustave Witt.JPG Views:	0 Size:	18.8 KB ID:	726500


                              As I understand it, Maybrick worked for Gustave Witt in Liverpool in the early to mid 1870s, in the now infamous Knowsley Buildings, but never in the East End. Maybrick stayed on in Liverpool, Witt later moved to London (Camberwell) and had an office north of Tower Hill.

                              Much to Feldman's delight, this office was a ten minute walk to Aldgate, the entryway into the East End, but other than a letter showing that Maybrick still did occasional work for Witt back in Liverpool, there is no evidence of Maybrick visiting him there, let alone living or working in the East End.

                              That a Liverpool businessman would have a partner that moved to the backwaters of Central London is a shocker, I know, but such things evidently happened. RP
                              Hi RJ,

                              Was Witt ever based in Liverpool?

                              Gary

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