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One Incontrovertible, Unequivocal, Undeniable Fact Which Refutes the Diary

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  • erobitha
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike J. G. View Post

    But you can proclaim that Barrett's search and purchase of a Victorian diary isn't a smoking gun? Brilliant.
    Why would Mike buy an 1891 diary? Pretty sure even Mike was bright enough to know Maybrick was pretty well dead by then.

    You might want to revisit the dates of when he tried to buy the above and when he claimed to have bought the scrapbook, alongside when he spoke to Doreen. I’d be keen to get your version of events of how you think things played out.

    Leave a comment:


  • erobitha
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike J. G. View Post

    And you'll do that based on absolutely nothing but a feeling.

    The diary was never proven to be a genuine historical artifact, we already know that such diaries can and have been forged before by simple minds, Mike Barrett was a writer, he sought out a Victorian diary, not one provenance for the finding of the diary adds up, the fact that there even is more than one provenance speaks volumes, the diary itself contains inconsistencies, it even contains a list, verbatim, that was published in a book long after Maybrick was dead and buried... I mean, seriously, people. Seriously...
    I love your inimitable style Mike. You strike me as a no-nonsense Scouser who shoots from the hip and says what he sees. Whilst I admire your commitment to your own sense of logic, you have made more leaps than Kris Akabussi. Which is perfectly your right.

    I do not believe the scrapbook is a modern hoax penned by the Barrett’s. It doesn’t mean that is the only outcome or else it is was penned by Maybrick. There is a whole myriad of other scenarios in between I cannot rule out. If you think Mike was the creative talent that wrote the scrapbook then more power to you. I believe him and his wife were incapable. Which has as much validity as your feeling that they were.

    What is that saying about opinions....

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by Al Bundy's Eyes View Post

    Hi Mike,

    Fairly decent season for The Toffees, many debating whether the lack of home fans affects the teams, but that's not an issue at Goodison, the silence is the norm. Sorry, had to get that in there. I'm a Villa man, have at ye!

    Many good points on this, the perpetual thread. I particularly enjoyed your "Diary Poetry", "Tin Matchbox I may have listed, I drank in the Poste House before it existed"

    Anyhows, here a question for you.

    The diary that Mike ordered is seen as a 'red flag' for his hoaxing predisposition, despite the reassurance that it was purely sourced as a value reference for a Victorian diary that he bought down down the pub. But I'd say, also waving the red flag, is Mike's transcript on his word (insert mike's stupid misspelling which proves his inability to forge a diary here) processor. Now, this may be an innocent file, or even a back up to his story, that it's just a simple transcript of the diary he received, made legible for those interested in his find.

    But does it strike you as odd that the guy who ordered a blank diary also had a transcript of the doubtful diary on his word (insert misspelling here to prove he couldn't have faked the diary, because he was too thick) (processor)

    What's on that transcript? Is it a word for word copy of the "diary"? It should be. If we're to believe what we've been told. Or does it contain scenes from the cutting room floor? Does it have so much as a single line that's not in any way in the diary? I'd assume so, because it's never been released. It can be, easily, but it's not. Like the interview tapes with Gray.

    If there's nothing to hide, hide nothing. Like you say, it's not up to us to prove forgery, until that transcript appears, and the Barrett / Gray tapes appear, I can only assume someone has something to hide.

    The argument whether the diary is fake is dead and gone. What was the Barrett's involvement? Prove me wrong, let's see that transcript, let's hear the tapes. That can happen tomorrow, regardless of RJ giving his tapes away.

    Until then I'll keep waving my red flags.
    I'm a red, mate! It's going well for the blues at the minute, though, which means it's going well for me financially, so I'm not gonna grumble.


    I don't think misspellings are any kind of a good indicator of whether Mike did or didn't write the diary, as I often make mistakes and typos, myself, and I know that many writers of varying degrees of talent do. I mentioned Tom Slemen earlier, and his books are riddled with typos, alas, this is what keeps food on editors tables!

    I wouldn't doubt that Mike will have had a draft or two of this diary, like any average writer would and should, and we mustn't forget that Mike WAS a writer, after all. To be clear, though, the diary doesn't need to have been penned by Mike, not physically, since Anne was also around. Mike managed to get paid for writing articles, so him not being able to get through a paragraph of commendable grammar isn't much of a damning statement on his ability, it all gets edited afterwards, but as we know, there's a few unnecessary letters added to words within the diary, so it's neither here nor there, imo.

    I'm not sure why Mike would need to buy a Victorian diary for some kind of reference point, I'm not sure why anyone would buy that as an excuse. The hunt for and purchase of said scrapbook is quite literally the most rouge of hues as far as red flags go, but some people seem to be able to ignore it when it's so blatantly obvious an issue.

    So far, all evidence points to the diary not having been written by Maybrick, and there's certainly no evidence to suggest it wasn't written as recently as it cropped up. There's no reason for anyone else to have penned it besides the small handful of people who proclaimed any sort of provenance to it, and imo, all available evidence leads to the Barretts.

    Were drafts of the Mussolini diaries ever seen? I'm not sure I can think of many hoaxes where artifacts of the ruse were ever presented until long after the fact in some cases and not at all in others.

    The fact that the Barretts were trying to pass the thing off as real to begin with kind of suggests that they wouldn't be daft enough to leave drafts or transcripts lying around.

    When there's literally zero evidence to suggest anyone else wrote it, all sensible reasoning dictates that it most likely came from the folks who brought it into the public eye to begin with, especially when one of them blatantly went about locating a Victorian diary around the time it all kicked off... Not even Sherlock Holmes would need to emphasize that, Watson's nan could've thunk it on a Sunday afternoon while peeling spuds.

    I'm glad you enjoyed my ode to Sir Jim!

    Cheers!

    Leave a comment:


  • Al Bundy's Eyes
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike J. G. View Post

    Unless you prefer to live life as a fantasist, the entire thing should set alarm bells ringing, but there you go.

    Occam's Razor be damned.
    Hi Mike,

    Fairly decent season for The Toffees, many debating whether the lack of home fans affects the teams, but that's not an issue at Goodison, the silence is the norm. Sorry, had to get that in there. I'm a Villa man, have at ye!

    Many good points on this, the perpetual thread. I particularly enjoyed your "Diary Poetry", "Tin Matchbox I may have listed, I drank in the Poste House before it existed"

    Anyhows, here a question for you.

    The diary that Mike ordered is seen as a 'red flag' for his hoaxing predisposition, despite the reassurance that it was purely sourced as a value reference for a Victorian diary that he bought down down the pub. But I'd say, also waving the red flag, is Mike's transcript on his word (insert mike's stupid misspelling which proves his inability to forge a diary here) processor. Now, this may be an innocent file, or even a back up to his story, that it's just a simple transcript of the diary he received, made legible for those interested in his find.

    But does it strike you as odd that the guy who ordered a blank diary also had a transcript of the doubtful diary on his word (insert misspelling here to prove he couldn't have faked the diary, because he was too thick) (processor)

    What's on that transcript? Is it a word for word copy of the "diary"? It should be. If we're to believe what we've been told. Or does it contain scenes from the cutting room floor? Does it have so much as a single line that's not in any way in the diary? I'd assume so, because it's never been released. It can be, easily, but it's not. Like the interview tapes with Gray.

    If there's nothing to hide, hide nothing. Like you say, it's not up to us to prove forgery, until that transcript appears, and the Barrett / Gray tapes appear, I can only assume someone has something to hide.

    The argument whether the diary is fake is dead and gone. What was the Barrett's involvement? Prove me wrong, let's see that transcript, let's hear the tapes. That can happen tomorrow, regardless of RJ giving his tapes away.

    Until then I'll keep waving my red flags.

    Leave a comment:


  • Abby Normal
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike J. G. View Post

    And you'll do that based on absolutely nothing but a feeling.

    The diary was never proven to be a genuine historical artifact, we already know that such diaries can and have been forged before by simple minds, Mike Barrett was a writer, he sought out a Victorian diary, not one provenance for the finding of the diary adds up, the fact that there even is more than one provenance speaks volumes, the diary itself contains inconsistencies, it even contains a list, verbatim, that was published in a book long after Maybrick was dead and buried... I mean, seriously, people. Seriously...
    its a fascinating psychological case study thats for sure

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    I will maintain to the day I die that it was not Mike or Anne who wrote it.
    And you'll do that based on absolutely nothing but a feeling.

    The diary was never proven to be a genuine historical artifact, we already know that such diaries can and have been forged before by simple minds, Mike Barrett was a writer, he sought out a Victorian diary, not one provenance for the finding of the diary adds up, the fact that there even is more than one provenance speaks volumes, the diary itself contains inconsistencies, it even contains a list, verbatim, that was published in a book long after Maybrick was dead and buried... I mean, seriously, people. Seriously...

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post

    How many pages were missing fron the front of the scrapbook? I can only guess in Mike's mind that was significant enough to try and compare somehow.

    Presenting Doreen with an expense for a Victorian diary would have set off alarm bells don't you think?

    As for Anne, I know others are a little more understanding and sympathetic to her than perhaps I am. I do feel the Barretts as a couple have made the doggiest of dinners of this whole thing, and as a result, we may never get to know the true origins of the scrapbook.

    I will maintain to the day I die that it was not Mike or Anne who wrote it.
    Unless you prefer to live life as a fantasist, the entire thing should set alarm bells ringing, but there you go.

    Occam's Razor be damned.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    If Mike bought this diary for comparison reasons, why did he stipulate that it “must have at least 20 blank pages?”

    What could all these blank pages tell him about the authenticity of a written document?

    Does a man who thinks he may have just bought a genuine Rembrandt rush out and try to compare it to a blank canvas?

    And if this was an innocent purchase, why didn’t Barrett bring it with him to London? “Here, Doreen, I’ve went to great expense—forking over 25 pounds that I couldn’t afford—to do my own comparison.”

    Instead, Mike hides its existence from Shirley Harrison and Doreen for the better part of 2 years, and never mentions it?

    Anne's ridiculous explanation made no sense 25 years ago, and it makes no sense now.
    It's baffling, innit?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post

    I can't actually rule this one out. There could also be a link to the house clearance in the 70's to an antiques dealer who cleared the house out. I'm talking about the watch here but the two could be linked. However, I do beleieve the more likely scenario is that it came out of Battlecrease House in March 1992.
    But you can proclaim that Barrett's search and purchase of a Victorian diary isn't a smoking gun? Brilliant.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by Scott Nelson View Post
    Devereux obtained an unknown document from a workman, Darren, who found it in Battlecrease sometime in the late 1970s or early to mid 1980s. Devereux then watched the Michael Caine mini-series in 1988 and decided to write a Maybrick Diary based on this old document with modern trimmings, such as the Abberline emphasis. He then gave it to Mike Barrett before he died. The older document may be with the Devereux family or may have been destroyed.
    So now we're making up other artifacts out of thin air? What if Devereux's unknown document was actually a poem written by RWE based on a really really real super-duper secret diary written by Michael Caine, and that this was the inspiration for Barrett's Maybrick diary?

    What if my auntie had bollocks?

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    Don't know about Caz, who has been at this for quite a considerable number of years more than I, but I am dizzy with all this round and round and round we go stuff.

    Mike's attempt to purchase a DIARY not long after speaking with Doreen is NOT a smoking gun of anything. Yet, this relentless campaign never ends. In my view he was attempting to buy something that would give him an idea of something he could compare to what he had. In typical Mike fashion he didn't realise what he had was a SCRAPBOOK presented as a DIARY. Martin Earl dutifully did as requested and when the penny dropped with Mike it was too late. Like most things in Mike's life. He didn't know whether he was being sold a pup himself. Instead of finding an apple to compare with an apple, he ordered an orange. Nothing more, nothing less.
    If the police were investigating it, not that they would, but let's hypothesize for a moment... Then they'd be VERY interested in Mike's attempts to purchase a Victorian diary, mate, I mean, that goes without bloody saying. I don't know how anyone can pretend that this isn't suspicious, but there you go, it's an odd world.

    Man proclaims to find the diary of JtR and then just randomly decides to buy a Victorian-era diary with enough blank pages to...what? Doodle? Not buying it. Nobody in their right mind should buy that.

    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    I have always personally had concerns with Anne's later version of events, and I cannot speak for anyone else's view. I still believe she has failed to be completely honest. She perhaps saw an opportunity to try and engineer the whole situation to her favour. After all, Mike knew he didn't get it from Devereuax and so did Anne. So by Anne saying she gave it to Devereaux to give to Mike left Mike in a pickle. Damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Nice chess move. He could feel the ownership of the scrapbook tale slipping away from him and into Anne's control. She masterfully turned the tables to her advantage. Of course, the scrapbook itself was sold to Robert Smith and remains in his possession, but for Mike it was Anne's behaviour that knocked him for six. How could she, his wife, do that to him? Pull the rug from under him like that? So that started Mike's campaign to try and regain control over the narrative and the only option left was, you guessed it, "I forged it". Not one shred of hard evidence that proves he did, but a massive F**ck You to Anne and her new best friend Feldy. "Who is the clever one now?". Mike truly believed he was getting the last laugh.
    Not many of the people involved seemed to be telling a straight story, that's what's so obviously telling about it all. You don't find a genuine artifact and tell a dozen different stories about where it came from.

    You seem to forget that there's more evidence to suggest it was forged than there is to suggest it was a genuine diary written by JtR, much less James Maybrick. The reason that the diary isn't considered genuine by anyone other than Ike and possibly Caz is because there's literally no evidence to suggest it is, and that's something many people often forget whether intentionally or not. The onus was on the people presenting it as a real artifact of historical importance to prove that it was indeed that, and that failed, for good reason. It's not for anyone to prove that it isn't fake, because that's literally not how things works. If I tell you that I've got the murder weapon of JtR in my cupboard, you don't need to waste even a minute proving me wrong.

    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    The sad thing is that a domestic dispute that had been brewing since the scrapbook was found led to ridiculous cat and mouse statements, retractions, half-truths and lies which left a whole community still wondering "well where did this thing actually come from?".
    I'd say that the fact that they were trying to pull a fast one and didn't get away with it is the reason they all started flapping their gums and contradicting each other. This is evident in many hoaxes throughout history.

    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    It came from under the floorboards of James May brick's bedroom on the 9th March 1992. Eddie Lyons found it and in effect sold it to Mike who had probably bragged about being a writer to him (they drank in the same pub for a while) and Eddie thought he might be able to "do something with it".
    I sincerely don't believe this version of events for a second. The timeline doesn't make sense and the story is absolute gibberish. As if Eddie Lyons would sell a potentially historical artifact plucked from beneath the floorboards of a well-known Victorian to a bloke in the pub who was fond of a drink, I mean, you've got to be kidding me.

    Originally posted by erobitha View Post
    Who put the book there? I don't know. I would like to believe it was Maybrick, but there is a good chance it might not have been.
    You can say that again, mate!



    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    Here's an example of RWE's work in The Echo. It would be somewhat odd if our old friend Tony Devereux set the type, no?


    Click image for larger version  Name:	Echo Febr 1872 RWE.JPG Views:	205 Size:	97.1 KB ID:	750056
    You might be on the money, RJ. I don't know if Tony set the type, but I'd be willing to bet my left thumb that he was well aware of these columns. As I said earlier in the thread, RWE was very popular around here, and him and his sister got about! His sister played harp at my parents' wedding!

    In the late 80's, the reissues of RWE's work were very well received. "Strange" that the "diary" surfaced a handful of years later.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    Hi Mike - Have you ever considered giving Anne Graham a ring and inviting her out to lunch and a pint? It seems unlikely she would ever accept (it has been reported she hung up the phone when Shirley Harrison tried to contact her a year or two ago), but maybe if she knew that the Diary's main supporters are now promoting the idea that she is a bald-faced liar and had helped her ex-husband Mike Barrett publish stolen goods, she would finally be willing to clear the air and tell, for the first time, the true origins of the Maybrick hoax? It would be beneficial to all if she would go on record and put this tawdry episode to bed. Who knows? Maybe she would like to get it off her chest.
    Allo, mate. To be honest, if I had any way of contacting Anne, I would do, but I imagine she's, like you say, not one to engage in dialogue with people on the matter. I'd go for a pint with her neighbour's dog at the minute, such is my urge to get back to the pub!

    I would assume she's well aware of how some people may view her, but isn't bothered, as she's able to live a life of relative anonymity. It's not often that people involved with hoaxes bother to clear their name as these hoaxes, though well known in the wider world among interested observers, are seldom huge stories for these people locally once the dust has settled. In the grand scheme of things, these hoaxes aren't really a big deal. If she was willing to involve herself then I doubt if she cares much about how she's perceived by a few Ripper-related readers.

    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    If I was in Liverpool I'd do it myself, and if I failed, I would try to contact Barrett's daughter and his sister, as they might also have relevant information they would be willing to put on record. As for your three questions, I have no doubt whatsoever it is a modern fake, Barrett was involved, and the red diary was purchased with the intention of creating a hoax.
    I did consider tracking down a few people, but honestly, I wouldn't know where to begin. I know some of the Devereux family, but I'm more familiar with the younger generation, who, IIRC, wete nephews of Tony, or something like that, but Tony died while they were still young. My parents know the older generation but as far as I know, they no longer live around Aigburth and I'm honestly not sure what relevant information any of them could provide. I agree; modern hoax, Barrett was definitely involved.

    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    Just to be clear about the chronology, though...Barrett contacted Doreen Montgomery, claiming to have the Diary of Jack the Ripper on March 9/10 1992. Martin Earl published an advertisement on Barrett's behalf, seeking a blank or partially blank diary on March 19th. David Barrat established that the timing is such that Barrett almost certainly contacted Earl with his request for a blank diary within days or hours of contacting Montgomery, since the request had to be submitted to Earl by March 11th to make the next issue of Bookdealer. This supports Barrett's claim that he hadn't physically created the diary until he had a fish on the line (Montgomery). Your point about Tales of Liverpool is right on the mark, however. Barrett owned this book long before Dodd had his floorboards lifted, and the Diary-friendly folk have no explanation.

    Their best guess is:

    Mike bought a copy of Tales of Liverpool, but never read it.

    Months later,

    Mike read a copy of Tales of Liverpool, but never bought it!

    If that sounds convoluted, it is.
    Cheers for that info, RJ. It's definitely convoluted, to say the least! I remember Orsom saying something similar to what you posted above re: the timeline.

    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
    One person who might have been familiar with Richard Whittington-Egan's works was Tony Devereux. He worked as a compositor at the Liverpool Echo when the Echo published a long, regular series of columns by Whittington-Egan dealing with Liverpool mysteries and oddities , including piece about the Maybrick case. Hell, it could have been Devereux who gave Barrett the copy of Tales of Liverpool to begin with. Cheers, RP
    I wouldn't doubt that, to be honest, RJ, I've a feeling Tony was a reader of RWE. You might very well be right about him lending Barrett the copy of Tales.

    Cheers, mate, all the best.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike J. G.
    replied
    Originally posted by Kattrup View Post

    1. Mike Barrett
    2. Fits all known evidence with no need for alternative, convoluted ad-hoc explanations
    3. To fake the diary
    Bingo.

    Leave a comment:


  • erobitha
    replied
    Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post

    If Mike bought this diary for comparison reasons, why did he stipulate that it “must have at least 20 blank pages?”

    What could all these blank pages tell him about the authenticity of a written document?

    Does a man who thinks he may have just bought a genuine Rembrandt rush out and try to compare it to a blank canvas?

    And if this was an innocent purchase, why didn’t Barrett bring it with him to London? “Here, Doreen, I’ve went to great expense—forking over 25 pounds that I couldn’t afford—to do my own comparison.”

    Instead, Mike hides its existence from Shirley Harrison and Doreen for the better part of 2 years, and never mentions it?

    Anne's ridiculous explanation made no sense 25 years ago, and it makes no sense now.
    How many pages were missing fron the front of the scrapbook? I can only guess in Mike's mind that was significant enough to try and compare somehow.

    Presenting Doreen with an expense for a Victorian diary would have set off alarm bells don't you think?

    As for Anne, I know others are a little more understanding and sympathetic to her than perhaps I am. I do feel the Barretts as a couple have made the doggiest of dinners of this whole thing, and as a result, we may never get to know the true origins of the scrapbook.

    I will maintain to the day I die that it was not Mike or Anne who wrote it.
    Last edited by erobitha; 01-29-2021, 09:00 AM.

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