Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[David Orsam]

Is there any evidence that Polly wasn't killed where she was found, asks an innocent newbie!!

Hi Rosella - I have discussed this in the thread "Brady St bloodstains Aug 31st" over on the Victims/Mary Ann Nichols board and it may be more appropriate to debate this over there. I don't entirely agree with the answer Tom has given you, at least in the sense that the evidence that Polly was killed where she was found is weak to the point of being non-existent, albeit that Tom says that he is "privy to more info than what's in the authorised version", so perhaps I am at a disadvantage here.

[David Orsam]

it would have taken two men to carry her to the gates of Brown's Yard.

I strongly disagree with this and, moreover, do so on the basis of personal experience. Now, I am not in the habit of carrying ladies down the street (dead or alive!) but about 15 years ago, after a work night out (on a "party bus" which took us to four different clubs) myself and some colleagues were walking down a central London street to get some food at about 1am. One of my female colleagues said her feet were hurting so I carried her along the street in my arms (rather famously, as it became with other colleagues who witnessed it). She was quite small, probably about 5ft 4 or 5ft 5, but Polly Nichols was tiny at 5 ft 2 or 5ft 3. I am 6ft tall but of slim build. So I have no hesitation in saying that an average stocky man would have had no problem at all in carrying the body of Polly Nichols 150 yards or so down Brady Street to the gates of Brown's Yard.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi Rosella - I have discussed this in the thread "Brady St bloodstains Aug 31st" over on the Victims/Mary Ann Nichols board and it may be more appropriate to debate this over there. I don't entirely agree with the answer Tom has given you, at least in the sense that the evidence that Polly was killed where she was found is weak to the point of being non-existent, albeit that Tom says that he is "privy to more info than what's in the authorised version", so perhaps I am at a disadvantage here.

Hi David. As Simon duly noted, I was simply baiting him. As for Nichols, I personally see no evidence she was killed elsewhere and quite a bit of evidence supporting that her murder took place where she was found. However, I'm open to new perspectives, particularly since I can't account for the whereabouts of the constables on duty.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Simon Wood]

Hi All,

You do realise that Brown's Yard also debouched onto Winthrop Street?

Regards,

Simon

[Monty]

And that the gates to the stable yard were locked,

Monty

[David Orsam]

Hi David. As Simon duly noted, I was simply baiting him. As for Nichols, I personally see no evidence she was killed elsewhere and quite a bit of evidence supporting that her murder took place where she was found. However, I'm open to new perspectives, particularly since I can't account for the whereabouts of the constables on duty.

Oh okay, on the bait thing I thought you were being serious and I was wondering what you knew!

But can I ask you to do one thing for me. Tell me what the evidence is supporting the idea that Polly's murder took place where her body was found? I looked at it myself at the outset, expecting there to be a lot but (as I mention in my Brady St post in the other thread) found it weak to non-existent.

[Simon Wood]

Hi Monty,

From the inside.

Regards,

Simon

[Tom_Wescott]

Oh okay, on the bait thing I thought you were being serious and I was wondering what you knew!

But can I ask you to do one thing for me. Tell me what the evidence is supporting the idea that Polly's murder took place where her body was found? I looked at it myself at the outset, expecting there to be a lot but (as I mention in my Brady St post in the other thread) found it weak to non-existent.

Hi David. As you know, the suggestion that Nichols might have been killed elsewhere came from Dr. Llewellyn. If you look at when he first thought that and why, and then consider when everyone's mind change about it and the reasons why, you'll see why the evidence points to Nichols having been killed on the spot. Then ask yourself what's more likely, that she was murdered where found or that she was killed elsewhere, carried all bloody to another street, and then not only dumped but carefully laid out and then posed with her legs separated and her dressed pulled up.

Because such a job would require two people to pull it off with any sort of haste, are you working on an argument that Cross and Paul were a murder team?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[David Orsam]

Hi David. As you know, the suggestion that Nichols might have been killed elsewhere came from Dr. Llewellyn. If you look at when he first thought that and why, and then consider when everyone's mind change about it and the reasons why, you'll see why the evidence points to Nichols having been killed on the spot. Then ask yourself what's more likely, that she was murdered where found or that she was killed elsewhere, carried all bloody to another street, and then not only dumped but carefully laid out and then posed with her legs separated and her dressed pulled up.

Because such a job would require two people to pull it off with any sort of haste, are you working on an argument that Cross and Paul were a murder team?

I'm not working on any argument at all. As I mentioned earlier, I have absolutely no doubt from personal experience that it would have been very easy for one man to carry Polly's body down Brady Row and don't know why you think there would need to have been two men involved (with or without haste).

A few posts ago you said there was "quite a bit of evidence" supporting the notion that Polly was killed where her body was found. So what is it?

[Tom_Wescott]

I'm not working on any argument at all. As I mentioned earlier, I have absolutely no doubt from personal experience that it would have been very easy for one man to carry Polly's body down Brady Row and don't know why you think there would need to have been two men involved (with or without haste).

A few posts ago you said there was "quite a bit of evidence" supporting the notion that Polly was killed where her body was found. So what is it?

I answered that in my last post. As for Polly's lone handler, he must have been quite strong. What did he do with Polly's bonnet as he carried her? Wear it on his head? If as you suggest he killed her in a lighted area and then carried her alone a good distance to a dark area and then hung around to clean her up and pose her, then he must have either been insane or really wanted to get captured. I would think any such individual would indeed have been captured very quickly, don't you? Whoever JTR was, he was clearly willing to risk his liberty to commit the murders he did, but he also had strong instincts for self-preservation and seems to have taken precautions to that end. The scenario you're describing argues completely against that.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[David Orsam]

I answered that in my last post.

I beg to disagree. You didn't offer any evidence at all. You told me to look at what Dr Llewellyn first thought and then to consider what other people thought and then to ask myself some questions. There was no evidence referred to in there at all.

[Tom_Wescott]

I beg to disagree. You didn't offer any evidence at all. You told me to look at what Dr Llewellyn first thought and then to consider what other people thought and then to ask myself some questions. There was no evidence referred to in there at all.

I was assuming you were familiar enough with the evidence surrounding the argument you're making. If you are, you'll know why the notion that Nichols was killed elsewhere exists and you'll also know why it was argued against at the time.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[David Orsam]

I was assuming you were familiar enough with the evidence surrounding the argument you're making. If you are, you'll know why the notion that Nichols was killed elsewhere exists and you'll also know why it was argued against at the time.

I did look at the evidence (and I discuss it in the Brady St bloodstains thread) but the only evidence I am aware of in support of the notion that Polly Nichols was killed where her body was found is as follows (quoting myself from #5 in the Brady St bloodstains thread):

"The evidence that Nichols was murdered where she was found came from Inspector Helson. As reported in the Daily Chronicle:

A Juror: Did the body look as if it had been brought dead to Buck’s-row?

Witness: No, I should say that the offence was committed on the spot.”

The report in The Times elaborates a little on this:

"Witness was also of opinion that the murder was committed at the spot where the body was found. The clothes were very little arranged thus showing the body could not have been carried far."

And that - the clothes being little arranged - seems to be the only reason offered as to why Nichols was murdered in Buck's Row."

Even that doesn't really support the notion that Polly was not murdered in Brady Street because Helston's claim that the body "could not have been carried far" does not categorically rule out the possibility that it was carried 150 yards.

Llewellyn doesn't help because he didn't offer an opinion during the inquest as to where the murder occurred, although he said he did not see any marks as if the body had been "dragged". Neil said he didn't see any marks of wheels but could say no more. So I have looked at the evidence and cannot see that there is "quite a bit" to support the idea that Polly was murdered where she found. On the contrary, as I have mentioned, it seems weak to non-existent. And then there were these reports of the bloodstains in Brady Street.....

[Tom_Wescott]

So you haven't looked at any of the medical evidence relating to the matter?

How do you suppose this lone killer transported her body from Brady Street to Buck's Row? Was he carrying her Frankenstein monster style across his arms or holding her under the arms, dragging her feet as he walked backwards? Or did he carry her in a wheelbarrow with a hole in the bucket?

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Fisherman]

My concern would be mainly about the blood. Nichols bled as Neil saw her and she bled as Mizen saw her. Ergo, unless she was killed by means of strangulation in Brady Street, whereupon the killer carreid her to Browns Stable Yard, laid her down and cut her neck and stomach there, we should have a considerable amount of blood along the route Nichols was carried and we should not have the police reporting that there was no blood close to the body other than the pool beneath Nichols´ neck with it´s small stream leading down into the gutter and the blood where her legs had been.

I see absolutely no reason to think that she was carried from elsewhere, not evidencewise and not logically or practically.

The best,
Fisherman