Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[Herlock Sholmes]

At first he was bleating on about the door covering Chapman, they he said this is definitely true as it's a self closing door, I mistakenly thought it was not. However since it was apparently a self closing door this would make it worse as according to him if the door was opened it would hit Annie in the head.
You are correct though there is no way you could miss a body lying that close to your feet in moderately decent lighting conditions.

It was a self-closing door not a part of a magicians trick.

[Geddy2112]

I don't know what this Youtuber said and meant precisely, but if Richardson was sitting facing straight forward, then there's no chance that he could have missed Chapman.

At first he was bleating on about the door covering Chapman, they he said this is definitely true as it's a self closing door, I mistakenly thought it was not. However since it was apparently a self closing door this would make it worse as according to him if the door was opened it would hit Annie in the head.
You are correct though there is no way you could miss a body lying that close to your feet in moderately decent lighting conditions.

[Geddy2112]

Hi Geddy.

"do you want to bet 5k cash on it 5k cash that SOMEBODY who called himself cross gave an interview to a reporter on night of the murder said he heard the police mans whistle that found her..."

Keep me posted on this strange exchange, but it sounds like the poster is in a muddle and is thinking of Robert Paul's interview with Lloyd's Weekly News on the night of the Nichols' murder.

But I'm willing to hold the 10K while you two duke it out.

;-)

I just think he's a looney tune. I just asked him to name the paper it was from and I'll look it up. I also asked for 20g of whatever it was he was taking... Maybe he got muddled up but that means he got the wrong name and occasion... he's not doing to well to be taken as serious source.

I mean if there was a newspaper report given by Charles Cross or as Lechmere regarding the double event I'm sure someone like yourself would have found it by now. I'm convinced he thinks he is correct because he mentioned Cross now Lechmere told the reporter he was at his mother's house on the night of the Double Event so that would be three things he's got muddled up about.. that is some effort.

[Geddy2112]

Hi geddy
fair enough we’ll have to agree to disagree.

Hi Abby, that is great. Usually if the missus is involved if I get an 'agree to disagree' comment I class that as a win haha. I won't here though.

[FrankO]

Very true, thank you. I just can't see how the door would have obscured his view like the poster suggested even if it was self closing. It's 19 inches from the floor and like I said if it did as he said he would have hit her in the head as he opened it.

Hi Ian,

I don't know what this Youtuber said and meant precisery, but if Richardson was sitting facing straight forward, then there's no chance that he could have missed Chapman.



Cheers,
Frank

[rjpalmer]

'the plot thickens.'

Hi Geddy.

"do you want to bet 5k cash on it 5k cash that SOMEBODY who called himself cross gave an interview to a reporter on night of the murder said he heard the police mans whistle that found her..."

Keep me posted on this strange exchange, but it sounds like the poster is in a muddle and is thinking of Robert Paul's interview with Lloyd's Weekly News on the night of the Nichols' murder.

But I'm willing to hold the 10K while you two duke it out.

;-)

[Abby Normal]

As the person putting more top soil on his garden once said... 'the plot thickens.'

Regarding last night's YouTube claim that Cross spoke to the press the night of the Double Event we now have...



Swiftly followed up by...



So now he claims that Cross gave the name Lechmere to the reporter on the night of the Double Event.... sometimes words are not enough... and I'm not sure what 'late teens' have to do with anything.. crikey.

Ridiculous . I wouldn’t waste your time with these you tube clowns . Save your sanity and avoid!

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby, sorry but I've just shown the calculations that follow the known evidence, there is no missing time. Even if you pinch a minute here or there it does not add up to the 8 mins the Baron was bleating on about and certainly not enough time to kill Polly. There could be missing time of you say Cross left home at 3:20am or 3:00am but we generally should accept the majority time of about 3:30am. Anything else is speculation.

Another point if we go, as I've mentioned earlier that Cross as a killer heard Paul from 40 yards away, he according to the theory would have to pull her clothes down, cut her throat twice, wipe his hands and knife on a rag, hide his rag and knife about his person, plot his bluff, get back to the middle of the road as Paul did not see him move back and then appear calm and collected. All this in the time it would have taken Paul to encroach on him from 40 yards. What 10 seconds or so, now we really are into Fantasy Island territory if we think he could have done that.

Hi geddy
fair enough we’ll have to agree to disagree. For me the bottom line is we have no witnesses who saw lech until paul , so we don’t know exactly how long he was alone with /near her. Imho taking into account how quickly the killer could have killed and inflicted the wounds on her, seconds or a minute or so, lech is clearly in the frame for being her killer, although I think he probably wasn’t and was just a man on his way to work who discovered her body .

I pretty much agree with your second paragraph though I don’t think it’s impossible. Cheers.

[Herlock Sholmes]

I agree 100% with David Orsam who, in his excellent Breaking Point article wrote:


“For, in attempting to bolster his attempt to pin the murder of Nichols on Lechmere, Holmgren claims on page 92 of his book:

'Most papers speak of Lechmere saying that he left home at 3:30, but the time 3:20 is also mentioned in one paper'.”

That is false. Most papers speak of Lechmere saying that he left home at about 3:30. That is very different and makes a big difference, especially in circumstances where Holmgren's calculations about the time available to Lechmere to commit the murder are down to the minute.”

…

On this very forum however Christer said this:

“We must however accept that since the absolute bulk of the papers spoke of ”around 3.30”, that is by far the likeliest wording to have been given.”


So even Christer accepts the obvious.


David Orsam also said in his article:

“If we translate the number of reporters to their equivalent newspapers then, of the 19 newspapers in my list - which I believe is a complete list of newspapers reporting the evidence of the inquest of 3 September - ELEVEN newspapers used the word 'about'. That's what's known as a majority."

What we have to rely on is simple common sense. What is the likelier scenario - that a minority misheard what was said and missed the word ‘about’ or that the majority just imagined that word? It’s not the most tasking of questions is it?


It is a fact that Cross said that he left home at ‘about 3.30.’

[Geddy2112]

As the person putting more top soil on his garden once said... 'the plot thickens.'

Regarding last night's YouTube claim that Cross spoke to the press the night of the Double Event we now have...

i carnt be ARSED with YOU its obviouse your a know all that knows nothing id guess about late teens . so do you want to bet 5k cash on it 5k cash that SOMEBODY who called himself cross gave an interview to a reporter on night of the murder said he heard the police mans whistle that found her

Swiftly followed up by...

just to clarify he gave the name letchmere to the reporter not cross dosnt matter az the POINT is the same .

So now he claims that Cross gave the name Lechmere to the reporter on the night of the Double Event.... sometimes words are not enough... and I'm not sure what 'late teens' have to do with anything.. crikey.

[Geddy2112]

Hi geddy
lets be fair. If lech left at three thirty there could be missing time. Could. I don’t think he stood there for minutes gazing at the body nor do I think the encounter with Paul lasted many minutes. From the time lech stopped to look at the body from the time he left with Paul was at most five minutes? And I think the time to kill and gash her stomach could have happened in seconds or a minute. Plus if lech was the killer he probably lied about the time he left home and actually left earlier. So lech could clearly have been her killer anyway you look at it .

but I agree with your last statement .. more than likely the killer left before lech arrived and or lech scared him off. But let’s not over egg the pudding on the opposite side.

Hi Abby, sorry but I've just shown the calculations that follow the known evidence, there is no missing time. Even if you pinch a minute here or there it does not add up to the 8 mins the Baron was bleating on about and certainly not enough time to kill Polly. There could be missing time of you say Cross left home at 3:20am or 3:00am but we generally should accept the majority time of about 3:30am. Anything else is speculation.

Another point if we go, as I've mentioned earlier that Cross as a killer heard Paul from 40 yards away, he according to the theory would have to pull her clothes down, cut her throat twice, wipe his hands and knife on a rag, hide his rag and knife about his person, plot his bluff, get back to the middle of the road as Paul did not see him move back and then appear calm and collected. All this in the time it would have taken Paul to encroach on him from 40 yards. What 10 seconds or so, now we really are into Fantasy Island territory if we think he could have done that.

[Abby Normal]

Okay I'll give you exactly 3:30am, precisely 3:30am. Ready for some basic maths?

7-8 mins walk from Doveton St to Bucks Row. We can't be exact because we do not know his exact route or walking speed. Some papers even mention a Parson Street which did not exist.

So that gives us 3:38am when he spots the tarpaulin, as soon as that happens he hears Paul from 40 yards away and turns to attract his attention (Cross was 10 yards from the body in the middle of the road at this point.) Paul and Cross then approach the body say from half of the 40 yards as they had travelled 20 yards each, plus the 10 yards starting point.. lets round that up to 3:39am, not unfair I think. They then examine the body and plot what they are going to do. Let's say another minute or two. That takes us to 3:41am. Paul states not more than four mins had passed to them meeting Mizen. Mizen states this was at 3:45am. So this is collaborated by two witness under oath. Yes correct Paul, Cross and Mizen were at the end of Hanbury Street at 3:45am.

Cool... so 3:41am plus 4 mins 3:45am. Great it's all adding up. PC Neil and Thain confirm that Mizen is correct with his 3:45am timing, the doc claims she died around 3:30 to say 3:35. Abberline states the body was found around 3:40am.

So amazingly THERE IS NO MISSING TIME, NOT ONE SECOND, IT ALL ADDS UP WHEN YOU READ THE EVIDENCE AND USE BASIC MATHS. It's that simple. Where the hell you get 8 mins missing time from all of that is astonishing.

BUT there is a nice 5 to 10 min gap for the real killer to have done the deed and buggered off before Cross got there... I really can't see how Team Lechmere can't understand basic maths.

Hi geddy
lets be fair. If lech left at three thirty there could be missing time. Could. I don’t think he stood there for minutes gazing at the body nor do I think the encounter with Paul lasted many minutes. From the time lech stopped to look at the body from the time he left with Paul was at most five minutes? And I think the time to kill and gash her stomach could have happened in seconds or a minute. Plus if lech was the killer he probably lied about the time he left home and actually left earlier. So lech could clearly have been her killer anyway you look at it .

but I agree with your last statement .. more than likely the killer left before lech arrived and or lech scared him off. But let’s not over egg the pudding on the opposite side.

[Abby Normal]

There really can be no doubt about when Chapman was killed. As Kattrup said, Richardson couldn’t possibly have missed a mutilated corpse no more than a foot or so from his left boot. Anyone walking down those steps to end up with their feet on the flags would have been pushing that door further open with each step unless he wanted the door in his face. To stand on the flags the door would have had to have been at least 90 degrees open, probably more, with the corpse in easy view. Richardson also later saw the corpse from next door so he knew its exact location and how much floor space it took up and so he couldn’t have been mistaken about it somehow being obscured.

Add to this Cadosch hearing sounds in the yard which couldn’t have occurred had there been a corpse there.

Add to this Long seeing a man and a woman at just the right time (allowing for 5 minutes clock leeway or so)

Against this we have a Doctor using methods that every medical expert who ever drew breath tells us were unreliable and the conclusion is a fairly obvious one to arrive at.

Therefore, could Cross have killed Annie Chapman 90 minutes into his delivery schedule?

There’s more chance of us learning that Katy Price has vowed to live in a convent for the rest of her days and combine a life dedicated to prayer and solitary contemplation and an intensive study of medieval manuscripts.

Exactly Herlock
richardson would have undoubtedly seen a dead woman lying at his feet had Chapman been there. And added to the three witnesses you mention there was also Richardson’s testimony that the front door was open later pointing to a killer leaving in a hurry . Chapman was killed later in the morning.

[Fiver]

And if that’s the case, then guess what? The “about” reports don’t matter. Because when faced with multiple versions, the more specific one wins. Every. Single. Time.

If someone tells five people they left home “around 3:30” but tells two people “I left at 3:30,” you don’t just ignore the exact statement and pretend it never happened.

The Baron

Your example bears no resemblance to reality.

This wasn't Charles Cross telling seven people at seven different times. This was Cross publicly stating his evidence once at the inquest. The majority of witnesses to this one time record Cross as saying "around", not "at".

The only way to manufacture a gap is:
* Assume Robert Paul and Charles Cross had precisely accurate, synchronized clocks.
* Assume we can precisely time how long it would take to get to Bucks-row, even though we don't know Charles Cross' length of stride, walking pace, or precise route.
* Ignore the majority of accounts about the time when Charles Cross left home.
* Ignore all of the police accounts about when events occurred.

[Geddy2112]

Oh, did I mention that he left AT 3:30?

Okay I'll give you exactly 3:30am, precisely 3:30am. Ready for some basic maths?

7-8 mins walk from Doveton St to Bucks Row. We can't be exact because we do not know his exact route or walking speed. Some papers even mention a Parson Street which did not exist.

So that gives us 3:38am when he spots the tarpaulin, as soon as that happens he hears Paul from 40 yards away and turns to attract his attention (Cross was 10 yards from the body in the middle of the road at this point.) Paul and Cross then approach the body say from half of the 40 yards as they had travelled 20 yards each, plus the 10 yards starting point.. lets round that up to 3:39am, not unfair I think. They then examine the body and plot what they are going to do. Let's say another minute or two. That takes us to 3:41am. Paul states not more than four mins had passed to them meeting Mizen. Mizen states this was at 3:45am. So this is collaborated by two witness under oath. Yes correct Paul, Cross and Mizen were at the end of Hanbury Street at 3:45am.

Cool... so 3:41am plus 4 mins 3:45am. Great it's all adding up. PC Neil and Thain confirm that Mizen is correct with his 3:45am timing, the doc claims she died around 3:30 to say 3:35. Abberline states the body was found around 3:40am.

So amazingly THERE IS NO MISSING TIME, NOT ONE SECOND, IT ALL ADDS UP WHEN YOU READ THE EVIDENCE AND USE BASIC MATHS. It's that simple. Where the hell you get 8 mins missing time from all of that is astonishing.

BUT there is a nice 5 to 10 min gap for the real killer to have done the deed and buggered off before Cross got there... I really can't see how Team Lechmere can't understand basic maths.