Lets get Lechmere off the hook!

[rjpalmer]

Out of curiosity, I looked to see if Charles Edward Michael Letchford had another address in 1888. I couldn't find anything but when he married at Christmas the following year, he is listed at No. 17 Hanbury Street--not overly far from No. 29.

It just shows again that if one wants to play the geography game, it's not particularly unusual to find people associated with more than one 'Ripper' street.

[rjpalmer]

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners Street, says:-

"I passed through the street at half-past twelve, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by.

Ah, okay. Now I understand what he was referring to...

It's clever how Lechmere somehow assumed the identity of an actual person living at No. 30 Berner Street in the 1881 census... And his father was a carman so that seals it!

Young Letchford had five different sisters. You might point out to your 'friend' that not everyone who lives in an economically depressed area is a Saturday night boozer.

[Geddy2112]

Charles Letchford, living at 30, Berners Street, says:-

"I passed through the street at half-past twelve, and everything seemed to me to be going on as usual, and my sister was standing at the door at ten minutes to one, but did not see anyone pass by.

I heard the commotion when the body was found, and heard the policeman's whistles, but did not take any notice of the matter, as disturbances are very frequent at the club, and I thought it was only another row."

Source: The Eastern Evening News, Monday, 1st October, 1888.

So he obviously thinks this guy was Charles Lechmere.... oh dear.

[Geddy2112]

But I'm willing to hold the 10K while you two duke it out.

It's not getting any easier out there...

WHAT 40 yr old man visits his sister on a satday night at 12am but we know letchmers mother live that area .letchmere /letchford CHARLES same guy

im not giving you nish you never agreed the bet anyone can say " tell me and ill send you 5k.ANYWAY what are the ODDS charles LETCHFORDmy mistake .now has anyone checked the WITNESS out

your the bacon looking anerack go do some research on charles letchford untill you convince me that it is a totally differnt person im going with its the same guy . letchmere/letchford AGAIN what are the odds, Also letchmeres old area

What is a 'bacon looking anerack' ???

[Geddy2112]

"Come and look, mate, there’s a tarpaulin lying on the ground!"

Then, as soon as another man shows up, the tarpaulin magically becomes a woman.

...and amazingly enough neither of those two things happened. So I'm not sure what your point is. I think you are just 'trolling' for the sake of it. Very sad

[Geddy2112]

But I'm willing to hold the 10K while you two duke it out.

Apparently he is not paying out, he now claims it was Charles Letchford who gave the interview... I give up.

[Fiver]

A man, late for work, stops to inspect a tarpaulin, because that’s what all late people do. Then, as soon as another man shows up, the tarpaulin magically becomes a woman. A man who handles tarpaulins daily somehow can’t recognize one. A man who had every reason to keep walking just happens to stop, right next to a fresh murder scene.

The Baron

Again, your post has nothing to do with actual events.

"As I got up Bucks-row I saw something lying on the north side in the gateway to a wool warehouse. It looked to me like a man's tarpaulin, but on going into the centre of the road I saw it was the figure of a woman. At the same time I heard a man coming up the street in the same direction as I had done, so I waited for him to come up," - Charles Cross, Manchester Courier and Lancashire General Advertiser, 4 September.

* Cross initially though he saw a man's tarpaulin. That's an article of clothing, not the type of tarpaulin you place over goods on a cart.
* Snagging a lost waterproof jacket would take only a few seconds and provide Cross with both warmth and dryness for walking to work at 3:30am in the approaching fall and winter.
* Cross clearly said that as he got closer he saw it was a woman, not a man's tarpaulin. Getting a better view as you get closer does not mean Cross was saying there was a magical transformation.

Having trouble accepting that what you are seeing is a body is a common response.

On 18 April 1943, four boys in Hagley wood found a skull. They initially assumed it was an animal, then realized it was human. The unknown victim was later dubbed Bella in the Wych Elm.

On the morning of January 15, 1947 in Los Angeles, Betty Bersinger noticed something in weeds about a foot in from the sidewalk. At first, Bersinger thought it was a mannequin. Then she thought it was a drunk, naked woman. Then she realized that the body had been cut in half. It would come to be called the Black Dahlia case.

In December 2006, fisheries warden Trevor Saunders spotted something in the water that he initially thought was a mannequin. It wasn't until he shifted it, that Saunders realized he had found a victim of the Ipswich Serial Killer.

Cross had a normal human reaction to unexpectedly finding a body.

[The Baron]

Lechmere, the dedicated carman, late for work, rushing as any responsible worker would, until, oh my God, what’s that? A tarpaulin? Could it be? After 20 years of handling tarpaulins, he’s finally found one in the wild!

This is it, the tarpaulin of destiny! The once in a lifetime tarpaulin encounter! Forget work, forget being late, this historic moment demands his full attention!

He stops in his tracks, mesmerized, and even moves into the middle of the street to get a better look. Because when you see a tarpaulin, you drop everything.

And then, as he stands there, gazing at this mysterious, life altering piece of fabric, who comes along? Robert Paul, just trying to get to work. Lechmere sees him and immediately taps him on the shoulder. One can only imagine how that conversation would have gone if Lechmere had stuck to his original theory:

"Come and look, mate, there’s a tarpaulin lying on the ground!"

Yes, because that’s what normal people do, drag strangers over in the dark to marvel at roadside fabric. Maybe they could hold hands and have a deep conversation about the philosophy of lost tarpaulins.

Maybe shed a tear for all the other tarpaulins they’ve walked past without paying tribute.

But then, plot twist! as soon as Paul arrives, this sacred tarpaulin undergoes a shocking metamorphosis! No longer fabric, no longer just a sheet, it’s now a woman! Incredible! A real-life shape shifting tarp. Somewhere, a magician sobs because he’ll never be able to pull off an illusion this impressive. One second, a tarpaulin, next second, a woman. What are the odds?

Lechmere, a man who has spent decades working with these things, somehow didn’t recognize one when he saw it. That must be awkward. Imagine working with horses for 20 years and then one day mistaking a cow for a carriage.

And let’s not forget, this is a man late for work. Yet somehow, stopping for a random piece of fabric on the street made perfect sense.

This wasn’t just any tarp, no. This was The Chosen One. He could have kept walking. He could have ignored it. But no. This tarpaulin was special. So special, in fact, that when another man appeared, he felt morally obligated to share in its beauty.

"Come, Paul! Join me! Witness this roadside miracle! A tarpaulin, no, wait, a woman! Who could have possibly foreseen this?! Certainly not me, the man standing right next to her!"

What an unbelievable stroke of luck. A man running late, who just so happens to stop for a life changing tarp sighting, only for that tarp to suddenly transform into a woman just in time for him to play the role of the "concerned citizen."

Let’s just take a moment to appreciate the astronomical odds of this situation. The one guy in London who, for some reason, can’t tell the difference between a human being and a piece of fabric, just so happens to be the one guy standing near a freshly murdered woman at 3:45 AM. Incredible. The universe works in mysterious ways.

A man, late for work, stops to inspect a tarpaulin, because that’s what all late people do. Then, as soon as another man shows up, the tarpaulin magically becomes a woman. A man who handles tarpaulins daily somehow can’t recognize one. A man who had every reason to keep walking just happens to stop, right next to a fresh murder scene.

But sure, nothing suspicious here. Just a hard working chap, out for his morning tarp admiration ritual, who was blindsided when it turned out to be a body. Happens all the time.



The Baron

[Herlock Sholmes]

Yah, I don't doubt that! There were some pretty lengthy discussions, which sometimes became a bit repetitive, but as a result of such "debates", interesting points get raised and create some food for thought.

- Jeff

It’s an ongoing issue and I’m as much to blame as anyone in trying/hoping to reach a conclusion or consensus which, on the majority of topics, is never going to happen.

[JeffHamm]

At one point I could have almost recited the entire Chapman inquest transcript Jeff. I spent that much time on it.

Yah, I don't doubt that! There were some pretty lengthy discussions, which sometimes became a bit repetitive, but as a result of such "debates", interesting points get raised and create some food for thought.

- Jeff

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not a problem. I often make similar errors when I rely upon my memory and appreciate it when someone corrects me. So this was one of the rare opportunities for me to return the favour! At times the Chapman case discussions take centre stage, and Davis' was discussed quite a bit at one point so this detail seems to have stuck with me. If only more would!

- Jeff

At one point I could have almost recited the entire Chapman inquest transcript Jeff. I spent that much time on it.

[Herlock Sholmes]

For him to have missed a body where he was and she was there is definitely some smoke and mirrors going on, maybe even some of them 'mushrooms'

Then you have Cadosch. You couldn’t have someone moving around in the yard and not seeing the corpse. Then Long, who I know gets disputed and yes, witnesses can be mistaken, but she still saw a woman who she identified as Long.

As far as Long goes we should consider this, courtesy of Trevor. It’s a mnemonic used by the police to assess the strength of witnesses - ADVOKATE:

Amount of time under observation: How long did the witness have the person/incident in view?

Distance: What was the distance between the witness and the person/incident?

Visibility: What was the visibility at the time? Factors include the time of day/night, street lighting, etc.

Obstruction: Were there any obstructions to the view of the witness?

Known or seen before: Did the witness know, or had the witness ever seen, the person before? If so where and when?

Any reason to remember: Did the witness have any special reason for remembering the person/incident? Was there something specific that made the person/incident memorable?

Time-lapse: How long has elapsed since the witness saw the person/incident?

Error discrepancy: Are there any errors or material discrepancies between descriptions in the first and subsequent accounts of the witness?


In my opinion she would score higher than Lawende and yet few seem to doubt that he saw Eddowes. So why the greater doubt with Long? I think it’s because she gave a time that was slightly later than Cadosch meaning that they don’t exactly tie up but we all know about the issues with timings and synchronisation. All that it would have taken was Cadosch and Long’s times being 5 minutes or so out which is no big deal and they tie up.

[JeffHamm]

I stand corrected. Thanks for the memory assistance, Jeff.

Not a problem. I often make similar errors when I rely upon my memory and appreciate it when someone corrects me. So this was one of the rare opportunities for me to return the favour! At times the Chapman case discussions take centre stage, and Davis' was discussed quite a bit at one point so this detail seems to have stuck with me. If only more would!

- Jeff

[Lewis C]

Hi Lewis C,

John Davis states at the inquest that the back door was closed but the front door to the street was wide open. Here's the portion from the inquest that covers this:

[Coroner] When you went into the yard on Saturday morning was the yard door open or shut? - I found it shut. I cannot say whether it was latched - I cannot remember. I have been too much upset. The front street door was wide open and thrown against the wall. I was not surprised to find the front door open, as it was not unusual. I opened the back door, and stood in the entrance.

- Jeff

I stand corrected. Thanks for the memory assistance, Jeff.

[Geddy2112]

It was a self-closing door not a part of a magicians trick.

For him to have missed a body where he was and she was there is definitely some smoke and mirrors going on, maybe even some of them 'mushrooms'