Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Harry D]

You know what, Harry? You donīt make for a very compelling ripperologist.

I'd be careful about flinging any insults my way. Apparently, you and I are not so different after all.

[Fisherman]

I'd be careful about flinging any insults my way. Apparently, you and I are not so different after all.

I really donīt think you are any ripperologist material, Harry, so it was no insult at all.

And contrary to what you may think, we are not alike at all.

Now I will not answer any more off-topic posts from your side. Discuss the damn case or stay away, please.

[Kattrup]

All very logical, Columbo - but always looking at the differences only. If we accept that they were not the same man, we must also accept that:

Two serial killers overlapped in London of 1888.

If this point is not accepted, the rest, of course, are of no consequence.


Various body parts being found is not proof of murder.


My suggestion is therefore, if you want to convince someone of your theory, start by convincing them the "torso murders" were indeed murders.

[jerryd]

If this point is not accepted, the rest, of course, are of no consequence.


Various body parts being found is not proof of murder.


My suggestion is therefore, if you want to convince someone of your theory, start by convincing them the "torso murders" were indeed murders.

Hi Kattrup,

Elizabeth Jackson and the Pinchin Torso both ended in a "Wilful Murder" verdict.

[Fisherman]

If this point is not accepted, the rest, of course, are of no consequence.


Various body parts being found is not proof of murder.


My suggestion is therefore, if you want to convince someone of your theory, start by convincing them the "torso murders" were indeed murders.

Iīll begin with you, if I may:

Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly had their abdominal walls cut away in a few large sections.

This is practically unheard of in murder cases.

Elizabeth Jackson also had her abdominal wall cut away in a few large sections. Arguably, she therefore fell prey to the same person who took away the abdominal walls from Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly. There are a number of other factors - the cutting open of the abdomen from sternum to pubes, the cutting out of inner organs of both sexual and non-sexual character - that coincide too, making the suggestion that the same person did all of this impossible to look away from.

It does not mean that there is proof that the torso victims were murdered - but it DOES mean that it is by far the most probable suggestion. Since the responsible party definitely murdered both Chapman and Kelly, the reasonable proposition is that he murdered Elizabeth Jackson too. Historically, I am in good company with the legal authoritites who ruled the Jackson case a wilful murder.

If anybody who wants to point to the baffling similarities must prove conclusively that the torso cases were murders before he or she is allowed to do so, we will probably never be able to discuss the matter. Would that be to prefer?

[Dane_F]

The more unlikely, the higher the odds. So you think Lechmere being the killer is a better suggestion than the Ripper and the torso man being one and the same? Or am I misunderstanding you?

You are misunderstanding me.

My first sentence was directly responding to Colombo where I was saying without the JTR/Torso Killer link the case for Lechmere is already convoluted. In my eyes there is no need for the one-in-same theory to be what is viewed as the start of the convolution as Colombo was stating.

My second sentence was stating that I found JTR and Torso Killer being one in the same to be the most likely thing out of everything you've suggested Fisher.

I thought it read pretty clearly, even upon re-evaluating it. Apologies.

[Fisherman]

Kattrup!

Perhaps as close as we will get, a comment on the 1873 Torso made in the Lancet...

"There is very strong evidence that the woman met with a violent death, and that in the first instance severe blows were dealt on the right side of the head with some heavy, blunt instrument..."

[Fisherman]

You are misunderstanding me.

My first sentence was directly responding to Colombo where I was saying without the JTR/Torso Killer link the case for Lechmere is already convoluted. In my eyes there is no need for the one-in-same theory to be what is viewed as the start of the convolution as Colombo was stating.

My second sentence was stating that I found JTR and Torso Killer being one in the same to be the most likely thing out of everything you've suggested Fisher.

I thought it read pretty clearly, even upon re-evaluating it. Apologies.

I thought that this was what you meant, actually, but the odds thing had me uncertain. The more unexpected an outcome, the higher the odds!

No apologies needed!

[jerryd]

Kattrup!

Perhaps as close as we will get, a comment on the 1873 Torso made in the Lancet...

"There is very strong evidence that the woman met with a violent death, and that in the first instance severe blows were dealt on the right side of the head with some heavy, blunt instrument..."

Well....maybe not Christer. Remember, the Pinchin torso had severe bruising on the arms, back of the hands and on her back, as if she had been kicked and severely beaten.

[Dane_F]

I thought that this was what you meant, actually, but the odds thing had me uncertain. The more unexpected an outcome, the higher the odds!

No apologies needed!

I didn't realize that I had said the more unexpected an outcome, the higher the odds. As I stated earlier in the thread I give even odds that JTR/Torso Killer were the same person.

In the spirit of staying on topic about Lechmere let me ask:

Roughly 2 years ago I decided that there was nothing else to discuss about Lechmere until you had more information to add besides your blood "evidence". Now we are 2 years later and I'm curious, do you have anything else that you have added to strengthen the case for Lechmere?

Keep in mind I'm not asking to be facetious, I am legitimately interested in if there is anything new after 2 years.

[Fisherman]

Well....maybe not Christer. Remember, the Pinchin torso had severe bruising on the arms, back of the hands and on her back, as if she had been kicked and severely beaten.

Yep, thatīs true. Letīs call it a tie. In the Pinchin Street case, Iīm fascinated by how the nightgown was cut along the front and from neckline to the arm openings, teling us that it was removed from the body as it lay on the back. There is a fair parallel with Danny Rolling who cut the t-shirts and tank tops from his victims in the exact same way - since they had had their wrists tied together with duct tape.

Anyway, I donīt feel uneasy at all about handling the series as one of murder. Nor did the authorities the police or any of those who have authored books on it.

[Fisherman]

I didn't realize that I had said the more unexpected an outcome, the higher the odds. As I stated earlier in the thread I give even odds that JTR/Torso Killer were the same person.

In the spirit of staying on topic about Lechmere let me ask:

Roughly 2 years ago I decided that there was nothing else to discuss about Lechmere until you had more information to add besides your blood "evidence". Now we are 2 years later and I'm curious, do you have anything else that you have added to strengthen the case for Lechmere?

Keep in mind I'm not asking to be facetious, I am legitimately interested in if there is anything new after 2 years.

Well, you said "I actually see JTR and The Torso Killer as being the thing with the highest odds out of all of this." But thatīs water under the bridge, since you have clarified what you meant.

Is there anything new about Lechmere? Not in relation to the Ripper case, no (unless Edward Stow has something that I am unaware of) - but since I think the Ripper and the torso man is one and the same, it must be said that the fewest of the ordinary Ripper suspects would survive such a thing. Lechmere, however, would, with ease.

All in all, I donīt think more needs to be added to Lechmereīs candidacy. It is a very good candidacy as it stands, good enough to warrant a trial according to James Scobie. Which other suspect can get even close to that? None, it the answer.

[Fisherman]

Bedtime now - I will read the response (all of it totally in agreement with what I am saying, Iīm sure ) tomorrow.

[Abby Normal]

If this point is not accepted, the rest, of course, are of no consequence.


Various body parts being found is not proof of murder.


My suggestion is therefore, if you want to convince someone of your theory, start by convincing them the "torso murders" were indeed murders.

I'm not even sure you need to do that.

Gein started out with already dead bodies.

[Dane_F]

Well, you said "I actually see JTR and The Torso Killer as being the thing with the highest odds out of all of this." But thatīs water under the bridge, since you have clarified what you meant.

Is there anything new about Lechmere? Not in relation to the Ripper case, no (unless Edward Stow has something that I am unaware of) - but since I think the Ripper and the torso man is one and the same, it must be said that the fewest of the ordinary Ripper suspects would survive such a thing. Lechmere, however, would, with ease.

All in all, I donīt think more needs to be added to Lechmereīs candidacy. It is a very good candidacy as it stands, good enough to warrant a trial according to James Scobie. Which other suspect can get even close to that? None, it the answer.

Thank you for the response. I suppose I am still at the same conclusion now that I had 2 years ago.