Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Fisherman]

Is there any information that suggests the evidence of Cross was false.His reasons for being in Bucks Row are sound.The time element from when he first saw what turned out to be the body of Nichols,and the time it took for Paul to arrive,is insufficient for Cross to have accosted Nichols,killed and mutilated her,and stood in the road waiting.Unless Cross was lying,and no one,then or now,has proven that.
There is no case against Cross.

In your last post, you went on about how there is no evidence. I posted the blood evidence to you.
Now you go on about something else.

Thanks for being so obvious.

[Fisherman]

John Wheat (or is it What?):

True to your record, you bring nothing but an unbecoming combination of scorn and ignorance to the table. It makes any further discussion useless.

If I say that X applies because of Y, there can be a fruitful debate if somebody cpounters that with how they think that Z must also be counted into the picture. But no fruitful debate can arise with people who basically say that I am wrong because I am wrong and then recommend me to go **** myself, or something along those lines.
You need another discussion partner, somebody more suited to the level of discussion you have so far managed to sustain. And it ainīt me.

I wish you a long, calm and joyful life.

[John Wheat]

No Fisherman you're wrong because there is nothing what so ever to say that Lechmere was JTR or The Torso Killer. And anything you post on this site is clouded by you're bizarre unwavering belief that Lechmere was JTR and The Torso Killer.

Cheers John

[Harry D]

As the first person on the scene, Lechmere merited checking out. Subsequent undertakings by modern researchers have failed, in my humblest of opinions, to construct a compelling suspect.

[Fisherman]

No Fisherman you're wrong because there is nothing what so ever to say that Lechmere was JTR or The Torso Killer. And anything you post on this site is clouded by you're bizarre unwavering belief that Lechmere was JTR and The Torso Killer.

Cheers John

Like I said, I wish you a long, calm and joyful life. If ever you should take up the interest of ripperology and develop some sort of thinking related to it, I will gladly take up our discussions again. But it will take more than your assertion that I am wrong and you are right. It will take argument built under by knwoledge and an understanding of the case. There is no need whatsoever for you to agree with me, you are wyite welcome to disagree - but you need to be able to explain on what griunds you do so. As it stands, you emerge like a mixture of a ripperologist wannabee and a football hooligan. And I am not interested in the kind of debate such a thing would give rise to.

[Fisherman]

As the first person on the scene, Lechmere merited checking out. Subsequent undertakings by modern researchers have failed, in my humblest of opinions, to construct a compelling suspect.

Yeah, like how Jason Payne-James says that the bleeding would be over within a period of minutes only, three to five minutes being a better suggestion than seven, and it could well be a question of one or two minutes only.

That certainly does not make for a compelling suspect. Why would it? Since we know that there is always a chance that Nichols deviated from the normal bleeding pattern, and since Lechmere could never have been the killer, we have quite enough to write the suggestion off.

You know what, Harry? You donīt make for a very compelling ripperologist.

[Abby Normal]

If JTR and The Torso Killer were one and the same why did no medical experts of the time believe they were one and the same and where are the medical experts who today who believe JTR and The Torso Killer were on end the same?

No one thought the Visalia ransacker, east area rapist and original night stalker were the same man until DNA linked them.

There have been many murders that serial killers committed that authorities had no clue they committed or thought it was someone else until much later, usually because of modern techniques like DNA.

[Fisherman]

No one thought the Visalia ransacker, east area rapist and original night stalker were the same man until DNA linked them.

There have been many murders that serial killers committed that authorities had no clue they committed or thought it was someone else until much later, usually because of modern techniques like DNA.

I think you are wasting your time, Abby - those who have a genuine interest in cases like these already knows what you are talking about - and the rest just do not want to get informed. I)t would take the fun out of what they are doing.
Itīs a sad state of affairs, but there you are.

[Columbo]

To Dane F

Isn't it more that Christer has fabricated a case for Lechmere out of nothing. Which I don't think is remotely interesting. But JTR and The Torso Killer did not operate in the same area. JTR largely operated in Whitechapel and The Torso Killer operated all over London.

Cheers John

Let's not forget that Fisherman did not fabricate this theory, he just expanded on it. Quite well I might add.

As far as both series being done by the same killer, I personally don't think so, because the MO is too different. Let's say Cross was JTR. Ok, he could because the circumstances allow for it (killing outdoors, easy getaway). For him to be the torso killer he would need a place of complete privacy and the time to do it. For Cross I think this is not possible given his job and family obligations. You would also have to prove he had or could even afford someplace to dismember bodies in total privacy and a way to cart them around.

The case starts to get convoluted when we delve into aspects such as this with a subject such as Cross.

Just my humble opinion,

Columbo

[Fleetwood Mac]

No one thought the Visalia ransacker, east area rapist and original night stalker were the same man until DNA linked them.

There have been many murders that serial killers committed that authorities had no clue they committed or thought it was someone else until much later, usually because of modern techniques like DNA.

Isn't the EAR and the ONS the same man, but there's no proof he was also the Visalia Ransacker? Not that it matters. A very interesting case that, and in my mind he was a far more disturbed man than JTR.

[Dane_F]

To be fair, the case for Lechmere is convoluted well before we add in the Torso murders.

I actually see JTR and The Torso Killer as being the thing with the highest odds out of all of this.

[Columbo]

Two questions:

1. Do you agree that the more rare and odd a detail is, the larger the chance becomes that we are dealing with the same originator?

2. Do you agree that a killer cutting the abdominal wall away in large sections from his victims is very, very rare and odd?

1. as long as the circumstances surrounding the entire murder are similar.

2. Hard question because it's not unusual in cases involving mutilations. For the most part mutilation murders involve the face and abdomen. Mutilation murders are not as common now as they were a few decades ago (I say that but we don't really know how many there are at this moment).

Columbo

[Fisherman]

Let's not forget that Fisherman did not fabricate this theory, he just expanded on it. Quite well I might add.

As far as both series being done by the same killer, I personally don't think so, because the MO is too different. Let's say Cross was JTR. Ok, he could because the circumstances allow for it (killing outdoors, easy getaway). For him to be the torso killer he would need a place of complete privacy and the time to do it. For Cross I think this is not possible given his job and family obligations. You would also have to prove he had or could even afford someplace to dismember bodies in total privacy and a way to cart them around.

The case starts to get convoluted when we delve into aspects such as this with a subject such as Cross.

Just my humble opinion,

Columbo

All very logical, Columbo - but always looking at the differences only. If we accept that they were not the same man, we must also accept that:

Two serial killers overlapped in London of 1888.
Both men were evisceration killers, an extremely rare breed.
Both men cut their victims open from sternum to pubes.
Both men took out organs, both of a sexual and of a non-sexual nature.
Both men were incredibly skilled with the knife.
Both men took away part of their victimīs colons in some instances.
Both men cut away the abdominal walls of some of their victims.
Both men took rings from the fingers of victims.

These things, we must look upon as purely coincidental, if we discard the idea that they were one and the same. Or we must regard them as copy-cat features, sometimes sold from the Ripper to the torso man, other times having travelled the other way.

I say that is so incredible as to be virtually impossible.

Is it virtually impossible that Lechmere had a bolthole where he could kill? He need not have owned it himself, it must not have cost him a penny.

Is it virtually impossible that he did not spend all his free hours with his family? My own grandfather had ten kids and a job, and he was rarely at home when free.

Is it virtually impossible that he carted the bodies in his Pickfords cart, or that he had access to another cart?

Was he pennyless? No, he left a substantial inheritance when he died, and he had had enough money to open a shop during life.

Which is the more improbable thing?

[Fisherman]

2. Hard question because it's not unusual in cases involving mutilations. For the most part mutilation murders involve the face and abdomen. Mutilation murders are not as common now as they were a few decades ago (I say that but we don't really know how many there are at this moment).

Columbo

It is not unusual that a killer cuts the abdominal wall away from his victim/s...? Abdominal mutilations are totally rare to begin with. And when they occur, they will typically involve a cutting open of the abdomen (and organ retrieval at times), but they will NOT involve cutting the abdominal wall away in large sections, Columbo. Where did you get that from? Do you have any examples? I have been searching high and low for such cases, but I fail to find them.

[Fisherman]

To be fair, the case for Lechmere is convoluted well before we add in the Torso murders.

I actually see JTR and The Torso Killer as being the thing with the highest odds out of all of this.

The more unlikely, the higher the odds. So you think Lechmere being the killer is a better suggestion than the Ripper and the torso man being one and the same? Or am I misunderstanding you?