Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Pierre]

Yep, thatīs true. Letīs call it a tie. In the Pinchin Street case, Iīm fascinated by how the nightgown was cut along the front and from neckline to the arm openings, teling us that it was removed from the body as it lay on the back. There is a fair parallel with Danny Rolling who cut the t-shirts and tank tops from his victims in the exact same way - since they had had their wrists tied together with duct tape.

Anyway, I donīt feel uneasy at all about handling the series as one of murder. Nor did the authorities the police or any of those who have authored books on it.

No wonder Lechmere wanted to protect his wife.

(Yes, Pinchin Street was later.)

[Harry D]

I really donīt think you are any ripperologist material, Harry, so it was no insult at all..

If "Ripperologist" means dragging a dead man's name through the dirt on the flimsiest of circumstantial evidence, thank **** for that.

Now I will not answer any more off-topic posts from your side. Discuss the damn case or stay away, please.

What case? The one for Lechmere, you mean? Still waiting for that, m'afraid.

[Abby Normal]

Let's not forget that Fisherman did not fabricate this theory, he just expanded on it. Quite well I might add.

As far as both series being done by the same killer, I personally don't think so, because the MO is too different. Let's say Cross was JTR. Ok, he could because the circumstances allow for it (killing outdoors, easy getaway). For him to be the torso killer he would need a place of complete privacy and the time to do it. For Cross I think this is not possible given his job and family obligations. You would also have to prove he had or could even afford someplace to dismember bodies in total privacy and a way to cart them around.

The case starts to get convoluted when we delve into aspects such as this with a subject such as Cross.

Just my humble opinion,

Columbo

Hi Columbo

As far as both series being done by the same killer, I personally don't think so, because the MO is too different.

This is frustrating. Ive seen this mistake a thousand times on here. whats the MO in both series?

we know the probable MO in the ripper case. Ruse as being a customer, getting victim to secluded spot, sudden attack, possible strangulation-incapacitating the victim, cutting throat.

we don't know the MO the torso used, so how can you say different MO?

And if your getting MO and sig mixed up, as apparently many on here do-the sig is virtually the same-post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.

The APPARENT difference in MO could simply be a function of availability of a bolt hole.

[Abby Normal]

Let's not forget that Fisherman did not fabricate this theory, he just expanded on it. Quite well I might add.

As far as both series being done by the same killer, I personally don't think so, because the MO is too different. Let's say Cross was JTR. Ok, he could because the circumstances allow for it (killing outdoors, easy getaway). For him to be the torso killer he would need a place of complete privacy and the time to do it. For Cross I think this is not possible given his job and family obligations. You would also have to prove he had or could even afford someplace to dismember bodies in total privacy and a way to cart them around.

The case starts to get convoluted when we delve into aspects such as this with a subject such as Cross.

Just my humble opinion,

Columbo

as for lech being both. his family had a cats meat business. seems the perfect place to kill and cut up a body to me.

and just to add-his age tallies well with being both as the first torso was in 73.

[Elamarna]

And if your getting MO and sig mixed up, as apparently many on here do-the sig is virtually the same-post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.

Hi Abby,

Indeed so a common mistake, however(always one with me I know) I do not consider the signatures to be virtually the same.

The mutilations while superficial similar are quite different if one looks in real detail, the continual talk of 2, 3 or 4 flaps or panels of flesh being removed and proving a link, is interesting, and potentially important, but ultimately misleading


There is actually no detailed documentation available, as far as I am aware, to show that these generic descriptions (flaps or panels, which ever term one wishes to use) infact show any similarity at all.

I have discussed this with Fisherman at length and of course he does not give an inch, however there is nothing at present to show these items of flesh were even remotely alike, or were removed by a similar means.

Of course such a lack of data does not mean that they are not alike, just that generic descriptions do not give enough detail to make a comparison on.

If there are some detailed medical descriptions I would love to see them, having been unable to locate any myself, it would help point this argument in one direction or another.

I also see significant differences in the apparent levels of skill shown between the Whitechapel and Torso murders.


Just to be clear, I see nothing at present to rule out the theory that the same hand was responsible for both sets of murders.
On the other hand I see nothing which convinces me that the same hand did indeed carry out both sets of murders.

So while the hypothesis is viable, it is far from proven, maybe Fish or someone else will eventually produce hard data to push definitively in one direction or the other, rather than just going over the same well worn opinions interminably (mine included of course).


Steve

[Trevor Marriott]

If this point is not accepted, the rest, of course, are of no consequence.


Various body parts being found is not proof of murder.


My suggestion is therefore, if you want to convince someone of your theory, start by convincing them the "torso murders" were indeed murders.

This is what he keeps being told, but he wont accept it and there is no proof that all the victims he has lumped together with this theory were all murdered.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Trevor Marriott]

Yep, thatīs true. Letīs call it a tie. In the Pinchin Street case, Iīm fascinated by how the nightgown was cut along the front and from neckline to the arm openings, teling us that it was removed from the body as it lay on the back. There is a fair parallel with Danny Rolling who cut the t-shirts and tank tops from his victims in the exact same way - since they had had their wrists tied together with duct tape.

Anyway, I donīt feel uneasy at all about handling the series as one of murder. Nor did the authorities the police or any of those who have authored books on it.

Can you prove this was murder ? All you have is a body that as been cut up.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[jerryd]

If there are some detailed medical descriptions I would love to see them, having been unable to locate any myself, it would help point this argument in one direction or another.

Hi Steve,

From Mary Kelly Post-Mortem:

Dr. Bond: The skin and tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone, the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation, and part of the right buttock. The left thigh was stripped of skin fascia, and muscles as far as the knee.

From Elizabeth Jackson: (An Exercise in Forensic Medicine)

Dr. Hebbert: The flaps of skin and subcataneous tissues consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons Veneris, the left labium majus and labium minus. The right piece included the rest of the mons Veneris, the right labium majus and minus, and part of the skin of the right buttock. The flaps accurately fitted together at the mid-line, and laterally corresponded to the incisions in the two lower pieces in the trunk.

From Annie Chapman:

Inspector Chandler:

..left arm resting on left breast, legs drawn up, abducted, small intestines and flap of the abdomen lying on right side, above right shoulder, attached by a chord with the rest of the intestines inside the body; two flaps of skin from the lower part of the abdomen lying in a large quantity of blood above the left shoulder..."

[Kattrup]

Iīll begin with you, if I may:

Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly had their abdominal walls cut away in a few large sections.

This is practically unheard of in murder cases.

I do not know whether it is unheard of in murder cases, - it may very well be - but it does seem to be a very practical approach when opening up a body in order to rummage around the insides.

We know that both Chapman and Kelly were definitely murdered, and, I agree, by the same hand.

Elizabeth Jackson also had her abdominal wall cut away in a few large sections.

I believe this is a misrepresentation of sorts. You clearly equate the technique and area involved, inducing the belief that they were very similar.

I fail to see clear similarities. The comparable cuts to Elizabeth Jackson were two, one encompassing the navel and left side of the external sexual organs, the other the right side of same extending down to the buttock.

I think such two cuts to be a rather different, and smaller, matter than the "large sections" of some undetermined but by implication larger number.

Particularly because the purpose of making the cuts in Chapman and Kelly cases seems clear: gaining access to the insides, so organs could be extracted.

The purpose of the cuts in Elizabeth Jackson seems less clear, since the body itself had been divided.

Arguably, she therefore fell prey to the same person who took away the abdominal walls from Annie Chapman and Mary Kelly.

As mentioned, Chapman and Kelly were definitely murdered. They therefore fell prey to someone.

Jackson is not known to have been murdered. Arguably, she therefore cannot be said to have fallen prey to anyone.

There are a number of other factors - the cutting open of the abdomen from sternum to pubes, the cutting out of inner organs of both sexual and non-sexual character - that coincide too, making the suggestion that the same person did all of this impossible to look away from.

I think it is a reasonable suggestion, but not as selfevident as you make it. The authorities at the time did not consider it so.

It does not mean that there is proof that the torso victims were murdered - but it DOES mean that it is by far the most probable suggestion.

I disagree, since the torso cases are different and are spread over such a long period, bundling them all together and saying murder's the most probable suggestion for all of them is untenable.

Since the responsible party definitely murdered both Chapman and Kelly, the reasonable proposition is that he murdered Elizabeth Jackson too.

I disagree. Someone murdered both Chapman and Kelly. There are some superficial similarities to Jackson in how her body was cut after death (the "flaps of skin"), but no clear indication that she was murdered, and the only organs missing were the intestines, which the Chapman/Kelly-murderer disregarded (I suggest they were only missing because nothing was holding them in after Jackson's body was divided up, so the dismemberer had to take them out).

Historically, I am in good company with the legal authoritites who ruled the Jackson case a wilful murder.

Historically, the authorities believed that Jackson was not a victim of the Ripper.

If anybody who wants to point to the baffling similarities must prove conclusively that the torso cases were murders before he or she is allowed to do so, we will probably never be able to discuss the matter. Would that be to prefer?

I think it would be to prefer if it could be conceded that the case for murder is not as clear -cut as you make it out to be.


Particularly when discussing the cases as a whole - lumping them all together as "victims" is misleading. Some are more likely to be murder victims than others, I believe. Finding a dismembered torso does not necessarily mean anyone was murdered - though it does warrant further investigation.

I should add that I have been unable to find the lectures given by Hebbert (and Bond?) on some of the torso cases, I don't know if they are available online somewhere?

[Elamarna]

Hi Jerry

Thanks for those quotes, and unfortunately those are some of the very descriptions that just highlights the problem I have on the issue

Hi Steve,

From Mary Kelly Post-Mortem:

Dr. Bond: [I]The skin and tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps.

Three flaps, no description of shape or the angle of cutting. Size is only stated as large, that really is not particularly helpful when attempting to compare mutilations

From Elizabeth Jackson: (An Exercise in Forensic Medicine)

Dr. Hebbert: The flaps of skin and subcataneous tissues consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons Veneris, the left labium majus and labium minus. The right piece included the rest of the mons Veneris, the right labium majus and minus, and part of the skin of the right buttock. The flaps accurately fitted together at the mid-line, and laterally corresponded to the incisions in the two lower pieces in the trunk.

A somewhat better description, we know that the two pieces of tissue fitted together and we are given some idea of the length, however it also says :

"consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls."


We therefore do not know the actual size or shape of the tissue, and have no way of comparing the similarities or differences to the Kelly case above.

From Annie Chapman:

Inspector Chandler:

flap of the abdomen lying on right side, above right shoulder,

Once again there is no accurate detailed description of the shape of size or how the cuts were performed to remove the flap.

by two flaps of skin from the lower part of the abdomen lying in a large quantity of blood above the left shoulder..."

And the same applies again.


Yes there are certainly superficial similarities, it has been said that removing flaps is highly unusually in murders, however creating flaps of skin when performing a dissection is actually fairly normal. that may hint that the killer/ killers had some idea of either human or animal dissection/butchery.


If there were two separate killers at large in London at the same time, both carrying out mutilations which are like dissection/butchery, which is possible if statistically unusually, it would not be unusually if they used vaguely similar methods.


However because we have no idea of the shape and size of the flaps, or the method used, we cannot know if they are similar or not.


If the same killer was responsible I would expect there to be distinct similarities between the two sets, and from what you have so kindly posted that is not apparent!


We have superficial similarities, we can say no more I think because the precise details we need appear not to have been recorded.


In the case of Jackson we appear to have 2 long, thinnish areas of tissue (the term slips is used); whilst in the Kelly case the descriptions is of 3 large flaps, with no idea of the shape or actual size.
While that of Kelly may sound similar to Chapman, we cannot be sure as there appears to be no description at all of the flaps themselves in that case.

We also appear to have sparse information about the probably direction and type of the cuts needed to create these items of tissue.
For instance are the cuts clean and Sharpe, suggesting skill and precision or are they rough perhaps just indicating hacking.

Are the cuts made to create the flaps in the same direction on the different victims or are there random.
If it is the same killer we should expect him to repeat the method used as far as possible.


There appears to be nothing which would help to indicate the actual angle of cut, which would of course help in deciding the hand used.

It is tempting I agree to just say , well flaps, strips all the same really, however it is not.

You may not agree with me, but do you see my point Jerry?

Best wishes


Steve

[Elamarna]

I do not know whether it is unheard of in murder cases, - it may very well be - but it does seem to be a very practical approach when opening up a body in order to rummage around the insides.

We know that both Chapman and Kelly were definitely murdered, and, I agree, by the same hand.


I believe this is a misrepresentation of sorts. You clearly equate the technique and area involved, inducing the belief that they were very similar.

I fail to see clear similarities. The comparable cuts to Elizabeth Jackson were two, one encompassing the navel and left side of the external sexual organs, the other the right side of same extending down to the buttock.

I think such two cuts to be a rather different, and smaller, matter than the "large sections" of some undetermined but by implication larger number.

Particularly because the purpose of making the cuts in Chapman and Kelly cases seems clear: gaining access to the insides, so organs could be extracted.

The purpose of the cuts in Elizabeth Jackson seems less clear, since the body itself had been divided.

Hi Kattrup

I can only agree with you points on those issues.

well argued post in total in my view.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

Indeed so a common mistake, however(always one with me I know) I do not consider the signatures to be virtually the same.

The mutilations while superficial similar are quite different if one looks in real detail, the continual talk of 2, 3 or 4 flaps or panels of flesh being removed and proving a link, is interesting, and potentially important, but ultimately misleading


There is actually no detailed documentation available, as far as I am aware, to show that these generic descriptions (flaps or panels, which ever term one wishes to use) infact show any similarity at all.

I have discussed this with Fisherman at length and of course he does not give an inch, however there is nothing at present to show these items of flesh were even remotely alike, or were removed by a similar means.

Of course such a lack of data does not mean that they are not alike, just that generic descriptions do not give enough detail to make a comparison on.

If there are some detailed medical descriptions I would love to see them, having been unable to locate any myself, it would help point this argument in one direction or another.

I also see significant differences in the apparent levels of skill shown between the Whitechapel and Torso murders.


Just to be clear, I see nothing at present to rule out the theory that the same hand was responsible for both sets of murders.
On the other hand I see nothing which convinces me that the same hand did indeed carry out both sets of murders.

So while the hypothesis is viable, it is far from proven, maybe Fish or someone else will eventually produce hard data to push definitively in one direction or the other, rather than just going over the same well worn opinions interminably (mine included of course).


Steve

Hi el
I've seen you make this point before re the flaps and for the life of me I just dont get it. I mean how can the cutting away of several large flaps of skin from the abdominal wall NOT be similar? How??

And regarding the sig- it's basically the same. Post mortem mutilator who cuts up and into the bodies of his victims, removing both internal and external organs and parts.

Any and all other similarities are just icing on the cake, and they are very numerous.

[Abby Normal]

I do not know whether it is unheard of in murder cases, - it may very well be - but it does seem to be a very practical approach when opening up a body in order to rummage around the insides.

We know that both Chapman and Kelly were definitely murdered, and, I agree, by the same hand.


I believe this is a misrepresentation of sorts. You clearly equate the technique and area involved, inducing the belief that they were very similar.

I fail to see clear similarities. The comparable cuts to Elizabeth Jackson were two, one encompassing the navel and left side of the external sexual organs, the other the right side of same extending down to the buttock.

I think such two cuts to be a rather different, and smaller, matter than the "large sections" of some undetermined but by implication larger number.

Particularly because the purpose of making the cuts in Chapman and Kelly cases seems clear: gaining access to the insides, so organs could be extracted.

The purpose of the cuts in Elizabeth Jackson seems less clear, since the body itself had been divided.

As mentioned, Chapman and Kelly were definitely murdered. They therefore fell prey to someone.

Jackson is not known to have been murdered. Arguably, she therefore cannot be said to have fallen prey to anyone.

I think it is a reasonable suggestion, but not as selfevident as you make it. The authorities at the time did not consider it so.

I disagree, since the torso cases are different and are spread over such a long period, bundling them all together and saying murder's the most probable suggestion for all of them is untenable.

I disagree. Someone murdered both Chapman and Kelly. There are some superficial similarities to Jackson in how her body was cut after death (the "flaps of skin"), but no clear indication that she was murdered, and the only organs missing were the intestines, which the Chapman/Kelly-murderer disregarded (I suggest they were only missing because nothing was holding them in after Jackson's body was divided up, so the dismemberer had to take them out).

Historically, the authorities believed that Jackson was not a victim of the Ripper.

I think it would be to prefer if it could be conceded that the case for murder is not as clear -cut as you make it out to be.


Particularly when discussing the cases as a whole - lumping them all together as "victims" is misleading. Some are more likely to be murder victims than others, I believe. Finding a dismembered torso does not necessarily mean anyone was murdered - though it does warrant further investigation.

I should add that I have been unable to find the lectures given by Hebbert (and Bond?) on some of the torso cases, I don't know if they are available online somewhere?

First of all Elizabeth Jackson verdict was willful murder, as was the another of the torsos. I see you conveniantly didnt address this point although it had been clearly pointed out to you.And besides you don't need to some official verdict, just common sense to realize that in these torso cases it's overwhelmingly probable that they were murdered.

Secondly any way you look at it flaps of skin removed in several large flaps from the abdomen is similar. But yes I will agree they probably didn't contain the same amount of atoms and the shapes probably weren't exact size of a template with a 11 inch hypotenuse.

Thirdly, Jackson had much more removed than just her intestines removed for crying out loud!!

Fourthly, you never responded to my response to your saying you need to show there was murder involved in the torso cases and I said what about Ed gein who started out with already dead bodies??

[Elamarna]

Hi el
I've seen you make this point before re the flaps and for the life of me I just dont get it. I mean how can the cutting away of several large flaps of skin from the abdominal wall NOT be similar? How??

And regarding the sig- it's basically the same. Post mortem mutilator who cuts up and into the bodies of his victims, removing both internal and external organs and parts.

Any and all other similarities are just icing on the cake, and they are very numerous.

Hi Abby

I feel it a shame that you don't get my point fully, yes they are similar, but we do not know if they are very alike or just coincidence, the result of using the same basic method of entry to do similar things.

That’s the central issue for me, if by the same hand I would expect them to be very alike, unfortunately we do not have the information to either prove or disprove that hypothesis.

Your reading of the similarities is that they strong enough to make a case, whereas to me they are only superficially the same.,

That is what happens when we have incomplete data( talking to Pierre too much, sorry). we can all draw different and apparently reasonable conclusions.

All the best


Steve

[Abby Normal]

Hi Steve,

From Mary Kelly Post-Mortem:

Dr. Bond: The skin and tissues of the abdomen from the costal arch to the pubes were removed in three large flaps. The right thigh was denuded in front to the bone, the flap of skin, including the external organs of generation, and part of the right buttock. The left thigh was stripped of skin fascia, and muscles as far as the knee.

From Elizabeth Jackson: (An Exercise in Forensic Medicine)

Dr. Hebbert: The flaps of skin and subcataneous tissues consisted of two long, irregular slips taken from the abdominal walls. The left piece included the umbilicus, the greater part of the mons Veneris, the left labium majus and labium minus. The right piece included the rest of the mons Veneris, the right labium majus and minus, and part of the skin of the right buttock. The flaps accurately fitted together at the mid-line, and laterally corresponded to the incisions in the two lower pieces in the trunk.

From Annie Chapman:

Inspector Chandler:

..left arm resting on left breast, legs drawn up, abducted, small intestines and flap of the abdomen lying on right side, above right shoulder, attached by a chord with the rest of the intestines inside the body; two flaps of skin from the lower part of the abdomen lying in a large quantity of blood above the left shoulder..."

Thanks Jerry
I didn't know about the skin removed from the right buttock. Thanks for highlighting another similarity