Charles Allen Lechmere - new suspect?

[Pierre]

Not for the first time I just don't understand what the hell Trevor is attempting, in his tortured English, to say.

If we accept that the name JTR was a fabrication then there was no such killer? But what if the killer's actual name was Jack D Ripper, but he only killed Chapman? Where does that leave your idiotic logic Trevor?

Trevor Marriott. I think that name was an invention of Trevor's parents. Therefore there is no Trevor Marriott.

We have different descriptions of the series of murders in 1888-1889. A lot of people try to understand it. Using concepts is one way. If you think that there was one single killer and you also thik that he used the concept "Jack the Ripper" you could argue for that. If you do not, you could argue against it.

There is no reason to call it "idiotic logic". It is the logic of social behaviour.

[Fisherman]

...and now itīs bedtime. And repentance time...

[Elamarna]

We see it from the C-5 point of view.

Look at it from the point of view of the Whitehall victim and the Pinchin Street victim.

What do the C-5 show us compared to those two?

Pierre,

with all respect, I have still to see any data which supports the hypothesis that the killer did the Whitehall job, in fact the more I have looked into the case, it seems that the body was indeed there for a much longer time than the workers at the site said.

While I accept that the idea of the Torso killer and JtR are possibly the same person, it is only a possibility, which is admittedly a step forward from the view that was previously accepted.

Despite the case argued mainly by Fisherman with regards to the similarity in cuts and wounds, there are in my professional opinion major differences in the level of skill described.

The similarities which seem strong to some, appear to be mostly due to the non scientific description available to all researchers.

I shall not go back over old ground, but to attempt link to the various flaps of skin as indicating the same hand, is a pointless exercise, we have no details with regards to shape and size of flaps nor the angle of cut. It is therefore impossible to state that there are real similarities.

Fisherman will of course disagree and such is his right, indeed if he did not part of his case would fail to exist.

Therefore at present I certainly agree the theory proposed by some that the same killer was in both sets of murders to be viable, however being viable does not make it probable as I am sure you agree.

We need more data before we can decide one way or the other.


With Regards to Pinchin street, much the same applies, You have proposed a partial hypothesis , I say partial as you have still to reveal much on which you base the idea.

The reported comments by Arnold are at best confusing and most probably should be viewed as being completely unreliable in attempting to draw a link.

At present nothing, I repeat nothing as been produced as strong supporting data for the hypothesis.

Of course I am well aware you will say you have more, however until you publish such data, I cannot accept it exist.


Certainly not a closed view, just one that is not convinced of a link.


steve

[John Wheat]

John Wheat: Lets be honest Fisherman I think many people at least think you're theory is ludicrous if not a complete and utter crackpot theory. If you don't care what I think why are you continually answering my posts?

Because I donīt like how you present me and the theory I stand for.

As you can see for yourself now, others are not very eager to buy into your thoughts either. And - Iīm sorry for being frank - contrary to you, we are talking about posters who have shown deep insight into the case(s).

A perfect example would be how you now say that "JTR and The Torso Killer did not operate in the same area. JTR largely operated in Whitechapel and The Torso Killer operated all over London."

Since when is Whitechapel NOT London? And since when did the Ripper kill in Whitechapel only? And since when do we know that the Torso killer operated "all over London"? And since when are serial killers who have killed in a London district prohibited to kill in another? And since when is a carman disenabled to reach throughout London?

Arrogance. How often it goes hand in hand with ignorance...!

But by all means, keep it coming. Itīs highly educative. In some ways.

To Fisherman

If you don't like what I say about your theory get a better theory. You seem to have misread my last post still sloppiness is par for the course with some people. I said JTR operated largely in Whitechapel did you read the largely? Who are these posters who have shown great insight into the case? Yes arrogance does often go hand in hand with ignorance as you so often demonstrate.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

JtR operated over an extremely small geographical area, however you define the location. The torso killer operated over a much larger area, and obviously had access to transport, which JtR obviously didn't.

Absolutely John G. It benefits the weak Lechmere theory to suggest that JTR and The Torso Killer were one and the same but as usual with proponents of the Lechmere theory it's incorrect.

Cheers John

[Dane_F]

To Dane F

Isn't it more that Christer has fabricated a case for Lechmere out of nothing. Which I don't think is remotely interesting. But JTR and The Torso Killer did not operate in the same area. JTR largely operated in Whitechapel and The Torso Killer operated all over London.

Cheers John

Would you not consider serial killers with very similar genital mutualions operating around a similar time in the same city, even if different borough, as something that is at the least highly coincidental?

[John Wheat]

It wasnīt Cross. He was innocent.

Pierre

Yes Pierre he certainly is. Not that it stops some trying to pin the JTR murders and The Torso Murders on him.

Cheers John

[John Wheat]

...and now itīs bedtime. And repentance time...

That's laughable.

[John Wheat]

Would you not consider serial killers with very similar genital mutualions operating around a similar time in the same city, even if different borough, as something that is at the least highly coincidental?

The genital mutilations suggest to me that The Torso Killer is giving a nod to JTR. Even if JTR and The Torso Killer are one and the same and very few seem to think this is the case there is **** all evidence that Lechmere is responsible for either series.

[Dane_F]

The genital mutilations suggest to me that The Torso Killer is giving a nod to JTR. Even if JTR and The Torso Killer are one and the same and very few seem to think this is the case there is **** all evidence that Lechmere is responsible for either series.

I agree. I have never liked Lechmere as a suspect and have argued with Fisher often about it. However the question was raised about the likelihood of the Ripper and the Torso Killer being the same person and that is what I was responding to.

The Torso murders have fascinated me for awhile now since Debra was kind enough to share the official medico examinations after she found them.

I would have to go back and check to make sure but I think it's possible some of the genital/abdominal mutilations showed up first in a Torso victim before any Ripper victim. So the tip of the hat would had to have been by JTR and not the other way around.

[John Wheat]

If JTR and The Torso Killer were one and the same why did no medical experts of the time believe they were one and the same and where are the medical experts who today who believe JTR and The Torso Killer were on end the same?

[Dane_F]

If JTR and The Torso Killer were one and the same why did no medical experts of the time believe they were one and the same and where are the medical experts who today who believe JTR and The Torso Killer were on end the same?

Medical experts and even different Police Officers couldn't and still can't agree on how many of the murders were done by JTR. That no one at the time thought to try and connect the two doesn't shock me.

How many other cold cases would not have been solved if the person looking said, "No one at the time thought the evidence pointed this way, so it must be a waste of my time to examine it." In regards to being one-in-the-same I've seen no evidence that rules out the possibility of JTR and the Torso Killer being the same person.

Actually, the most I've ever seen presented for them being different is basically what you have said here. Different part of town, no one at the time thought they were connected, spread out over a longer period.

[harry]

Is there any information that suggests the evidence of Cross was false.His reasons for being in Bucks Row are sound.The time element from when he first saw what turned out to be the body of Nichols,and the time it took for Paul to arrive,is insufficient for Cross to have accosted Nichols,killed and mutilated her,and stood in the road waiting.Unless Cross was lying,and no one,then or now,has proven that.
There is no case against Cross.

[Henry Flower]

We have different descriptions of the series of murders in 1888-1889. A lot of people try to understand it. Using concepts is one way. If you think that there was one single killer and you also thik that he used the concept "Jack the Ripper" you could argue for that. If you do not, you could argue against it.

There is no reason to call it "idiotic logic". It is the logic of social behaviour.

I don't need your advice, Pierre.

[John Wheat]

Is there any information that suggests the evidence of Cross was false.His reasons for being in Bucks Row are sound.The time element from when he first saw what turned out to be the body of Nichols,and the time it took for Paul to arrive,is insufficient for Cross to have accosted Nichols,killed and mutilated her,and stood in the road waiting.Unless Cross was lying,and no one,then or now,has proven that.
There is no case against Cross.

Absolutely harry.

There is no case whatsoever against Cross.

Cheers John