Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Observer]

Indeed Sir , but in the light of all the witnesses , and statements made ..
It was Route 1 as far as logical explanation goes ( Albeit , a little uncomfortable for most to pallet )

You know it makes sense Rodney

moonbegger

Errr, yes a tad beyond the pale for my liking. As for logical thinking, well, you know, flying Sus scrofa domesticus comes to mind. Forgive the Latin, It's de rigueur around here you know.

take care

Observer

[FrankO]

I think it is a reasonable assumption that on at least one level he was known as Cross during his childhood.

That’s a very feasible notion indeed, MrB. From when Charles was 8 years old his mother’s surname was Cross, so that’s very likely the name the 4 person family went or was known by during that period.

It is just a short step from accepting this to accepting that the name Cross may have been useful when obtaining his first job at, presumably, 13 or 14 as a van boy at Pickfords.

Although it's not known when Charles started to work for Pickfords exactly, Charles was very likely still living with his mother & stepfather when he did and so, it's quite possible as well that he got to work at Pickfords under his stepfather's surname.

All the best,
Frank

[Fisherman]

I think it is a reasonable assumption that on at least one level he was known as Cross during his childhood. As a policeman, Thomas Cross would have been a fairly conspicuous character in the neighbourhood. His stepson would surely have been associated with him by people who were not privy to the family history. So we MUST accept that some people would have known him as Charlie, Tom Cross's boy. Unless he wore a badge saying, 'My name is Lechmere. Call me Cross at your peril!'

It is just a short step from accepting this to accepting that the name Cross may have been useful when obtaining his first job at, presumably, 13 or 14 as a van boy at Pickfords. Thefts from vans were rife at the time and van boys were very often implicated. Having a copper as a referee was a major asset, and complicating it by insisting on his 'real' name wouldn't have made sense.

MrB

How would it "complicate" matters if he said that his name was Lechmere? Would Pickfords not have him in such a case? Would accepting his stepfathers name as his own be the only way in...?

"Just a short step" ...? My, how we produce true history here!

Why is it not "just a short step" from standing by a victim with her wounds hidden to being a killer, by the way?

Maybe you need that wake-up call right now?

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

FrankO: That’s a very feasible notion indeed, MrB. From when Charles was 8 years old his mother’s surname was Cross, so that’s very likely the name the 4 person family went or was known by during that period.

... and the name Lechmere was chosen to baptize him by, since ...??? By the way, his sister lived and died a Lechmere too. Maybe she also called herself Cross?

Although it's not known when Charles started to work for Pickfords exactly, Charles was very likely still living with his mother & stepfather when he did and so, it's quite possible as well that he got to work at Pickfords under his stepfather's surname.

Possible? Yes, anything is. He may have called himself Shrivnell if he liked the sound of it.

You need proof, not speculation, Frank. 120 signatures are waiting for that proof before they will go away.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

... and before we forget it, he STILL was using a name that was not his real one at the inquest, regardless if he thought "Cross" sounded like music to his ears and always chose that name whenever the authoritites were not around.

Otherwise, he never did that when authorities asked him to state his name. For some reason.

But he DID when the police asked him in relation with a murder inquiry where - incidentally - he had been found alone by the victim´s side. For some reason.

All the best,
Fisherman

[MrBarnett]

That’s a very feasible notion indeed, MrB. From when Charles was 8 years old his mother’s surname was Cross, so that’s very likely the name the 4 person family went or was known by during that period.
Although it's not known when Charles started to work for Pickfords exactly, Charles was very likely still living with his mother & stepfather when he did and so, it's quite possible as well that he got to work at Pickfords under his stepfather's surname.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank,

I'm trying to put across more than a feasibility. In his Met. uniform, Thomas Cross would have been well known in the neighbourhood. The boy who walked at his side on his way to the sweet shop would have been associated with the name Cross. Perhaps some neighbours would know that he was a stepson, but surely not all of them. So in my opinion it is highly likely that at least some people in the area would have thought of him as Charles Cross.

The idea that fewer people knew the name of the local Bobby than knew the intimate details of his personal life seems a little bit of a stretch.

Of course we don't know what Charles's first job was. However, his own son was a van boy in his early teens, and it is a fairly safe bet that Charles had a hand in his getting the job. And I imagine that aged 13/14 Charles himself would have used his stepfather's influence to obtain his first job.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

Please read the next post, sorry for the duplication.

MrB

[MrBarnett]

Fish,

I don't imagine Charles submitted his CV online to Pickfords' HR department. Probably his old man (step) had a word with a mate he knew who worked for Pickords in the pub and told Charlie to turn up at Broad Street and ask for Fred Bloggs, or whoever, the next day. Would a 13 year old boy have then launched into an explanation of his Lechmere ancestry, or just nodded 'Yes, sir. No, sir.' as his name was added to the employee list?

Or maybe PC Cross, who was responsible for the use of the name Charles Cross on the 1861 census, personally accompanied him to Pickfords.

MrB

[moonbegger]

Errr, yes a tad beyond the pale for my liking. As for logical thinking, well, you know, flying Sus scrofa domesticus comes to mind. Forgive the Latin, It's de rigueur around here you know.

take care

Observer

As soon as you dig up some hard evidence to shoot this space cowboy from his flying Sus scrofa domesticus , I will gladly meet you at dawn Forgive my brazen East London Humor .. It's de rigueur around here you know.

I do have some elaborate theory's I must admit Observer.. but the one in question is not among them , but having said that I am not entirely sure what one you are referring to so you may have a point after all

Cheers

moonbegger

[Lechmere]

Charles Lechmere’s father John Lechmere died in 1879.
Charles Lechmere and his sister Emily were baptised in the name Lechmere after their mother married Thomas Cross.
Emily Lechmere died in July 1869 the name of Lechmere before Thomas Cross died.
Charles Lechmere started working at Pickfords Broad Street around 1868 (according to his own account). He would have been about 17. This makes sense as Broad Street Goods Station opened in May 1868.
Note he started work at Broad Street about a year before his sister died in the name of Lechmere.
What evidence there is suggests the children were called Lechmere when they were children.
Apart from the 1861 census, which would logically have been completed by Thomas Cross and the most obvious explanation is that he called everyone Cross for the sake of ease.
What we do know is that in every record we have of Charles Lechmere giving his name when dealing with a whole variety of authorities, he always gave it as Lechmere and never Cross.
The one time he gave Cross was when he presented himself to the authorities after he was spotted close by a freshly killed victim of the unknown killer known as Jack the Ripper
If some people want to shrug this off as of no account then that is fine by me.
I know that isn’t how it is regarded in the wider non-Ripperological real world

[GUT]

Charles Lechmere’s father John Lechmere died in 1879.
Charles Lechmere and his sister Emily were baptised in the name Lechmere after their mother married Thomas Cross.
Emily Lechmere died in July 1869 the name of Lechmere before Thomas Cross died.
Charles Lechmere started working at Pickfords Broad Street around 1868 (according to his own account). He would have been about 17. This makes sense as Broad Street Goods Station opened in May 1868.
Note he started work at Broad Street about a year before his sister died in the name of Lechmere.
What evidence there is suggests the children were called Lechmere when they were children.
Apart from the 1861 census, which would logically have been completed by Thomas Cross and the most obvious explanation is that he called everyone Cross for the sake of ease.
What we do know is that in every record we have of Charles Lechmere giving his name when dealing with a whole variety of authorities, he always gave it as Lechmere and never Cross.
The one time he gave Cross was when he presented himself to the authorities after he was spotted close by a freshly killed victim of the unknown killer known as Jack the Ripper
If some people want to shrug this off as of no account then that is fine by me.
I know that isn’t how it is regarded in the wider non-Ripperological real world

Couple of points ...

If they were born Lechmere, what name would you expect them to be baptised under?

He wasn't spotted near the body, he approached Paul.

If she was Baptised Lechmere waht name would you expect on Birth Certificate?

So we just write off the census, because it doesn't fit.

No one I have spoken to sees the name as a major issue, they all seem to say, "So he used his step-dad's name day to day and his birth name in official documents, so what?, he may even have later reverted to Lechmere, So what?" Or at least that's the response I get from the non-ripper world.

[MrBarnett]

I know that isn’t how it is regarded in the wider non-Ripperological real world

So the whole non - Ripp world can't conceive of the possibility of someone filling in forms in their 'official' name, while being known 'unofficially' by the name of their stepfather?

Beam me up, Scotty, I have landed on a really weird planet.

[GUT]

So the whole non - Ripp world can't conceive of the possibility of someone filling in forms in their 'official' name, while being known 'unofficially' by the name of their stepfather?

Beam me up, Scotty, I have landed on a really weird planet.

I've said it before and I'll say it again I have an uncle who does it all the time very few people know him by his real name but all his legal dealing are in it and yes I was once with hm when he was pulled up for speeding by a cop who knew him and he had to explain the whole thing.

[MrBarnett]

GUT,

A breath of common sense on the name issue is very welcome.

Everyone I have spoken to (non-Ripp, non-partisan) seems to find it perfectly feasible that someone brought up by a step parent might use their step name in day to day exchanges yet use their official name when filling out forms. Presenting oneself at a police station as a witness is a bit of half way house, and one would tend to use the name that is most recognisable at the addresses given. In Charles's case, the name Cross would certainly have been known at home and may well have been the only name known at work. So why should we think it's use suspicious?

[GUT]

GUT,

A breath of common sense on the name issue is very welcome.

Everyone I have spoken to (non-Ripp, non-partisan) seems to find it perfectly feasible that someone brought up by a step parent might use their step name in day to day exchanges yet use their official name when filling out forms. Presenting oneself at a police station as a witness is a bit of half way house, and one would tend to use the name that is most recognisable at the addresses given. In Charles's case, the name Cross would certainly have been known at home and may well have been the only name known at work. Do why should we think it's use suspicious?

And the idea that he used Cross so his family wouldn't know it was him is simply, to me, unbelievable. If I was listed under my first and middle names and mum's maiden name [by which I have never been known], not to mention my place of work and in the newspaper address, do you think my family wouldn't be asking questions.