Charles Lechmere interesting link

[Monty]

Employers were not informed, they were not permitted to know, although some did find out via illegal means.

If you have evidence that his Pickfords services was 20 years continuous, then I agree that this scenario is unlikely.

Monty

[Lechmere]

We only know he worked there at all from his own lips.
They would have known if he was sent to jail during their employment of him.
Also I find it hard to believe that the internal files would not have given reference to it. If a known criminal had found the body that would surely be worth noting.

[Cogidubnus]

We only know anything any witness at all says from his or her own lips...this way lies madness...

[Debra A]

We only know he worked there at all from his own lips.
They would have known if he was sent to jail during their employment of him.
Also I find it hard to believe that the internal files would not have given reference to it. If a known criminal had found the body that would surely be worth noting.

I wouldn't be too sure. A known criminal was playing private detective right under the noses of H Division.

[Lechmere]

Isn't that's because that fellow went under a different name (or alias).
But under Monty's semi proposed theory the police allowed Lechmere to use a different name and so knew his real alternative identity.

[Debra A]

Isn't that's because that fellow went under a different name (or alias).
But under Monty's semi proposed theory the police allowed Lechmere to use a different name and so knew his real alternative identity.

Hmm, could be. They saw his pic in 1884 though!
I thought Monty was saying maybe Lechmere gave the name Cross because he was on licence under the name Lechmere?
That's why Grande became George Jackson.

[Lechmere]

But wasn't that picture not good enough to convince a jury of his identity a few years afterwards?
And it was only White who definitely met him.
That other police man (his bête noir, can't remember his name, who he bumped into in the clink) that followed his career particularly, didn't even know of his involvement in the Whitechapel murders at all.

If Lechmere had been convicted under the name Lechmere and released under a ticket of leave under Cross - then why isn't he in any records as Cross?
And wouldn't he have fessed up when he gave his statement to the police to his true identity and wouldn't that have then found its way into the official internal reports?
I assumed that Monty also thought the ticket of leave issue was a potential reason why he didn't give his address in court - or was allowed to not give an address - which again implies knowledge on the part of the authorities as to his true ID.

[Debra A]

But wasn't that picture not good enough to convince a jury of his identity a few years afterwards?
And it was only White who definitely met him.
That other police man (his bête noir, can't remember his name, who he bumped into in the clink) that followed his career particularly, didn't even know of his involvement in the Whitechapel murders at all.

If Lechmere had been convicted under the name Lechmere and released under a ticket of leave under Cross - then why isn't he in any records as Cross?
And wouldn't he have fessed up when he gave his statement to the police to his true identity and wouldn't that have then found its way into the official internal reports?
I assumed that Monty also thought the ticket of leave issue was a potential reason why he didn't give his address in court - or was allowed to not give an address - which again implies knowledge on the part of the authorities as to his true ID.

Sgt James got wind in the 91 case.


I was probably imagining Neil was suggesting a scenario where he [Lechmere] might have been convicted as Lechmere when he lived at a different address then been given a licence but not reported for supervision and so gave a false name in 88 when he was questioned as a witness.

[Lechmere]

Ah - so he may have been an absconding ticket of leave man?

[Monty]

As Ed states, that was the gist of my thinking. Not a theory I add. That his name was withheld at inquest as he was a ToL man.

Debs has suggested something I had not thought of at all. If he had broken the ToL rules, then he would have been Gazetted, with Pickfords the most likely first port of call for an arrest. That said, he lived in J Division didn't he? Meaning only J Division would be aware of his status. H Division would be oblivious if he was a ToL man. That said, again, Nichols's murder bought the two divisions together, and with it exchange of information. If H solely dealt with Cross initially, then maybe they were unaware of the situation at the beginning. IF he was a ToL man that is, again, to stress, I am merely speculating.

Another flaw is the use of the name Cross, which was still associated with him. Surely an unconnected name would be used.

As I stated, just throwing the idea ball around.

Monty

[Fisherman]

Another flaw is the use of the name Cross, which was still associated with him. Surely an unconnected name would be used.

Monty

That, to my mind, is the perhaps most serious flaw - just like you say, he would reasonably not be Cross, let alone Charles Allen Cross!

It would be a bit like renaming Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart as Wolfgang Amadeus Schmidt and hope for him to stay undetected. Or as if Joseph Mallord William Turner went into hiding under the name Joseph Mallord William Jennings.

All the best,
Fisherman

[Debra A]

As Ed states, that was the gist of my thinking. Not a theory I add. That his name was withheld at inquest as he was a ToL man.

Debs has suggested something I had not thought of at all. If he had broken the ToL rules, then he would have been Gazetted, with Pickfords the most likely first port of call for an arrest. That said, he lived in J Division didn't he? Meaning only J Division would be aware of his status. H Division would be oblivious if he was a ToL man. That said, again, Nichols's murder bought the two divisions together, and with it exchange of information. If H solely dealt with Cross initially, then maybe they were unaware of the situation at the beginning. IF he was a ToL man that is, again, to stress, I am merely speculating.

Another flaw is the use of the name Cross, which was still associated with him. Surely an unconnected name would be used.

As I stated, just throwing the idea ball around.

Monty

Neil, I obviously read too much about criminals who don't report, and my imagination ran amok in what I thought you were suggesting!

[Monty]

Neil, I obviously read too much about criminals who don't report, and my imagination ran amok in what I thought you were suggesting!

I'm glad you did Debs, cos its certainly food for thought.

Its certainly something I didn't consider and not come across before. It makes sense that a absconded ToL man would blurt out a name, the first that came into his head, when in that situation.

Monty

[Fisherman]

I'm glad you did Debs, cos its certainly food for thought.

Its certainly something I didn't consider and not come across before. It makes sense that a absconded ToL man would blurt out a name, the first that came into his head, when in that situation.

Monty

But he did not have to "blurt out a name", Monty - he approached Mizen on the murder night, without giving his name, and then he went to the police on his own initiative a couple of days after that.
He would have had lots of time to think about what he was to call himself if he was an absconded T o L man. And what he came up with was "Charles Allen Cross"...??

I think all we have points very much away from him having been a ticket of leave man, absconded or not. Nothing in his known records nor his behaviour points in that direction. Actually, when I initially thought you were speaking of a belief that he had been cleared, it was because the definition of a ticket of leave man I found in the dictionary was something I had a hard time believing anybody would suggest potentially attached to Lechmere.

Now that the suggestion has nevertheless been made, it will be interesting to see in what manner it can be substantiated!

All the best,
Fisherman

[Monty]

You are under the assumption Cross murdered Nichols.

I am not.

He spoke with an H division constable, on a potetially serious matter. Believe me, people say some ill thought words when under stress.

Monty