Was he lying?

[Geddy2112]

We only know that Paul spoke of it being a dangerous locality and being on one’s guard in combination with spotting a man standing in the middle of the street. Everything beyond that is speculation. If Buck’s Row was so dangerous, both he and Lechmere could easily have chosen the safe(r) Whitechapel Road, but they didn’t. Both chose to walk along Buck’s Row almost on a daily basis.

Absolutely, also can we assume Polly did not think it was that dangerous as surely we can assume that was a frequent spot to do business. I think it's fair to assume these poor ladies took their clients to familiar places that they figured were safe. I do not thing a random place would have been chosen to do business.
I still, no not saying he was Jack but Paul's role in all of this is far more suspicious. He seems in his newspaper reports and testimony going the extra mile to cover his own arse... something stinks haha.

[FrankO]

2. It was dim along Buck's row and a dangerous neighborhood: any one walking it at that time should have been on their guard:
which would mean in particular, anticipating new sounds.

We only know that Paul spoke of it being a dangerous locality and being on one’s guard in combination with spotting a man standing in the middle of the street. Everything beyond that is speculation. If Buck’s Row was so dangerous, both he and Lechmere could easily have chosen the safe(r) Whitechapel Road, but they didn’t. Both chose to walk along Buck’s Row almost on a daily basis.

3. PC Neil, while occupied with investigating the body by feel & sight, immediately heard the footsteps of PC Thain from 130 yards away.
PC Thain had not even entered Buck's row, but sounds travelled exceptionally well down that narrow stone street aligned with stone buildings, with no gaps.

You make it sound as if it should be surprising that Neil would have heard Thain. My view is different. Neil, having found a woman with her throat severely cut, would be on high alert. And I might add, just as might be expected of someone who’s killing and mutilating a woman out in the open street. Such a person would have every reason to be on high alert.

4. Lechmere, on his guard walking up the dark street, should have noticed that new sounds were isuing behind him:
- modern theories on sensory perception dictate that novel sounds are prioritized in the auditory system
- repetitive sounds are de-emphasized / ignored by somatic nerves and the auditory cortex.

We have no way of knowing if Lechmere was on his guard or not. You assume that, but he might just as well have been caught up in his own thoughts, routinely going to work, like he did almost every day.

5. Lechmere says that he never heard Paul's footsteps until he was crossing to the middle of the street, towards Polly Nichols body.
- Lech's defenders, who employ the antiquated footsteps drown out the other footsteps theory,
would need to explain why Lech finally heard these footsteps at this point: he was not only still walking,
but his brain was occupied visually with analyzing the recumbent body of Polly Nichols .... downgrading auditory cortical impulses.

No problem. He was concentrated on getting to work, caught up in his own daily thoughts until his attention was attracted by something lying on the other side of the street. So, his attention shifted and only when he actually realized it was a woman, he became aware of footsteps behind him. Before that, he simply had no reason to be on his guard or listen for any sounds.

6. Paul never mentions seeing or hearing Lechmere, until nearby the body of Polly Nichols

I know what your view is and can understand that, with your view, you have no other option but to think it odd that he didn’t hear or see anything of Lechmere ahead of him. Me, on the other hand, thinks that the evidence is such that he might just have become alert when he saw a man standing in the middle of the street.

But why the inconsistency? Why should we expect Paul to see or hear Lechmere walking in front of him, but why shouldn’t he have heard Lechmere move around the body and then move away from it to take up his position in the middle of the street? Are we supposed to assume that Paul was only on high alert until 5 seconds or more before spotting a man in the street ahead of him?

7. Lechmere, after marking Paul from around 40 yards away, immediately discontinues his movement to the body: a body only a few steps away. Most here at this point, one would imagine, would make a quick check to ascertain the woman's condition before addressing the stranger.

First of all, it’s not a fact or even a given that Lechmere only stops walking after seeing Paul some 40 yards away. There’s even nothing in the evidence to suggest it, really. He says he walked to the middle of the street, then saw it was the figure of a woman and that, at the same time he heard a man come up behind him, whom he then estimated to be 30 or 40 yards away from him. That’s it. He might have stopped walking when he realized it was a woman, he might have stopped when he heard footsteps behind him, he might have stopped when he turned to look back in the direction of Paul.

Furthermore, I’m not sure most would make a quick check. Why do you think this? Anyway, I can easily imagine anyone in that situation thinking precisely NOT to do what you propose in order to avoid the risk of being implicated in anything that might have happened to the woman.

But maybe he did make that quick check and then stepped back to the middle of the road, but just didn’t tell Paul or anybody else to avoid the risk of being implicated, even though he was innocent.

... but fits very poorly the notion that he was just in front of Paull all that time.

That’s only because you assume that Paul must have been on high alert up to some 5 to 10 seconds before he spotted Lechmere. But that neither a given nor very realistic.

[Geddy2112]

Why did Lech not hear Paul for so long?

We do not know. I always find this 'hearing' someone then estimated how far away they are is very inaccurate. It might not have been in those days it might have been something people were adapted to be able to tell more accurately.

Why is Paul's speed near to or exceeding the threshold of jogging while moving down Buck's row?

There is nothing in the evidence to suggest it was. He was 'behind time' so maybe walking a bit faster, or scared of the street/area so again maybe walking faster but there is no evidence to suggest a jogging speed. If he was jogging or faster would this change Lechmere's perception of the footsteps noise?

Why did Lech stand like a toad by the body, only a few steps away, for 30 seconds without checking it's condition?

Did he? Sorry missed that in the testimonies, can you point that out?

Why did Lech finally hear the footsteps while walking?

Again did he? 'He walked into the middle of the road, and saw that it was the figure of a woman. He then heard the footsteps of a man going up Buck's-row' He heard the footsteps whilst he was standing still in the middle of the road, Paul confirms this by saying - 'he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road'

Are you doing a Christer here and inventing scenarios to fit a narrative perhaps?

[Geddy2112]

Newbie maybe an important factor to place in would be the distance/time taken for Lechmere to get from 22 Doveton St to the bottom of Forster Street. That really should be the place the calculations should start since that is where they are constant for both men, distance wise.

[FrankO]

Why did Lech not hear Paul for so long?

Why did a guilty Lechmere not hear Paul for so long? Unlike the innocent Lechmere, he would have had every reason to listen for sounds and if he would have listened, we know from Neil's testimony that he then should have heard Paul even just before he turned into Buck's Row. And he would then have known how much distance (in the sense of approximate time and/or distance) he had to get away. Or at least, he would have known that he would have been able to get away before Paul would reach the body, and even further away before he could have raised any alarm, and even further away before anybody would react to the alarm.

[Newbie]

So, under the assumption of innocence we either have, in order to satisfy the 40 yard distance Paul was away when Lech spotted him:
* and I could have used 30 yards away, which would increase Paul's speed and decrease the distance of separation.

#I. Lechmere starting out less than 55 yards away, when Paul enters Bath Street,
where Paul should have seen Lech just ahead, and makes a critical ommision in his testimony.

#2. Lechmere starting out 60 yards away, when Paul enters Bath street, and you get either
Paul approaching the pace of a slow jog - closing the gap by some 50 yards (35 % of the distance PC Neil was able to hear Thain),
or you get Lech waiting by the body for 30 seconds, when adding 8 seconds between hearing and seeing that are not suggested in testimony


# 3. Lechmere starting out 70 yards away, when Paul enters Bath Street, and you get either
Paul jogging down Buck's row, or you get Lech waiting by the body for 30 seconds, when adding 8 seconds between hearing and seeing that are not suggested in
testimony
.

Why did Lech not hear Paul for so long?
Why is Paul's speed near to or exceeding the threshold of jogging while moving down Buck's row?
Why did Lech stand like a toad by the body, only a few steps away, for 30 seconds without checking it's condition?
Why did Lech finally hear the footsteps while walking?

Pick your poison!

[Newbie]

That's an inaccurate summary. Paul mentions seeing Lechmere in the middle of the street, which would be 3 to 4 yards from the body at a minimum. And we have no idea what the distance was between Paul and Lechmere - no one ever asked Paul. Paul did not state that he didn't hear Lechmere until he saw him. No one asked Paul when he first heard Lechmere.



This wasn't a struggling victim, crying for help. It was a prone, unmoving, body - clearly not an urgent situation. Neither Lechmere or Paul ever treated the situation as urgent.

You mean dead?

Than I agree,
absolutely no urgency required if it was a dead woman.

Are you arguing that Lechmere knew the woman was dead?

Again, I agree.

Good point!

[Newbie]

Math analysis of the movement of Lechmere/Paul down Buck’s row

1. First, I will start off with my findings and then conclusions that can be derived from the findings.
2. Second, I will go over the analysis that produced these findings.

Findings:

1. Comparative speeds, distance of separation, times….

Yards Lechmere was ahead of Paul when Paul entered Bath street	Time for Lechmere to begin crossing to middle of street, hear Paul, and then see Paul for the 1rst time	Distance Lech walked up Buck’s row with Paul trailing	Time Paul was trailing Lechmere up Buck’s row w/o Lechmere knowing	Distance of separation with Paul trailing Lechmere up Buck’s row	Speed up Buck’s row Lech Paul
60 yards	6 seconds	70 yards	42 seconds	53 - 51 yards	3.6 mph	3.8 mph
60 yards	12 seconds	66 yards	40 seconds	60 - 61 yards	3.6 mph	3.56 mph
70 yards	6 seconds	69 yards	39 seconds	63 - 51 yards	3.6 mph	4.1 mph
70 yards	12 seconds	64 yards	36 seconds	66 - 62 yards	3.6 mph	3.83 mph

II. Time Lechmere waits for Paul, once footsteps heard, while standing a few steps from body of Polly Nichols:

60 yards	6 seconds	time between hearing/ seeing Paul 2 seconds	time of approach after being Paul is seen 21.5 seconds	total time that Lechmere waits 23.5 seconds
60 yards	12 seconds	8 seconds	23 seconds	31 seconds
70 yards	6 seconds	2 seconds	20 seconds	22 seconds
70 yards	12 seconds	8 seconds	21.5 seconds	29.5 seconds

Conclusion


A: “In general, the average jogging speed is 4 to 6 mph.”

https://www.healthline.com/health/average-jogging-speed


Option #1: Paul, who has walked this route for 10 + years, is going faster

than the speed we would expect him to proceed to make it to work at 4 am

…. he either is close to or exceeds the speed of jogging, while closing the gap to about 50 yards, right before Lech moves across the street, towards the body.


Note: 50 yards is 38 % of the distance over which PC Neil heard PC Thain


Option #2: Paul goes at an acceptable speed, and is 60 + yards away from Lechmere at all times, while going up Buck’s road. However, in this case we would have to believe that Lechmere waits 30 seconds for Paul to arrive, once he hears Paul’s footsteps, all the while standing a few steps away from Polly Nichols’ body.


Logistics:

A: corner of Bath/Forster to Brady street - 55 yards

B: corner of Bath/Brady to Buck’s Row - 15 yards

C: Buck’s row to Polly Nichols body - 130 yards

D: Total distance from corner of Bath/Forster to body - 190 yards

E: Distance of Paul from Lechmere once spotted on Buck’s row:

30 - 40 yards


Assumptions:

1. Both Lechmere and Paul both walk at constant rates of speed
2. Lechmere is 55 + yards ahead of Paul, once Paul enters Bath street

• this ensures that Paul does not see Lechmere under the lights of the Albion brewery 3. We will consider Paul as 40 yards away from Lechmere once spotted

on Buck’s row.

1. Lechmere’s daily rate of speed to Pickfords to arrive at 4 am:

1.8 miles/30 minutes = 3.6 mph
2. Paul’s expected rate of speed to arrive at corbett’s court - Spitafields by 4 am that day:

1600 yards /900 seconds = 1.78 y/s

= 3.64 mph

• from the entrance of Buck’s row, Paul believes he has 15 minutes to go 1600 yards

Additional assumptions:

1. Lechmere does not stop until standing in the middle of Buck’s row
2. It takes Lechmere 4 seconds to leave curb, walk to middle of street, hear sound and look back down Buck’s row
3. An additional time will be added to this for Lechmere to see Paul enter his field of vision from the darkness:

total time between leaving street and seeing Paul:


t = 6 to 12 seconds


Equations employed:


t = time from start to when Lechmere sees body

Total distance to body from Forster entrance: d = 200 yards

Lech

1. A ⨶ t = 200 - D : D = starting distance from Bath street entrance
2. A = 3.6 mph = 1.76 yards/second

Paul

1. B ⨶ t = 200 - ( 40 + x) :

x = distance Paul walks between Lech leaving curb & seeing Paul
2. B ⨶ 6 = x


Boundary conditions:

At start: Lechmere has a 55 + yard lead {60 & 70 yards}

At end: Lechmere is 40 yards ahead, when Paul is spotted.

[Fiver]

6. Paul never mentions seeing or hearing Lechmere, until nearby the body of Polly Nichols

That's an inaccurate summary. Paul mentions seeing Lechmere in the middle of the street, which would be 3 to 4 yards from the body at a minimum. And we have no idea what the distance was between Paul and Lechmere - no one ever asked Paul. Paul did not state that he didn't hear Lechmere until he saw him. No one asked Paul when he first heard Lechmere.

7. Lechmere, after marking Paul from around 40 yards away, immediately discontinues his movement to the body: a body only a few steps away. Most here at this point, one would imagine, would make a quick check to ascertain the woman's condition before addressing the stranger.

Finding a woman collapsed on the edge of a street being an urgent situatin ..... life was cheap back then?

This wasn't a struggling victim, crying for help. It was a prone, unmoving, body - clearly not an urgent situation. Neither Lechmere or Paul ever treated the situation as urgent.

[Fiver]

4. Lechmere, on his guard walking up the dark street, should have noticed that new sounds were isuing behind him:
- modern theories on sensory perception dictate that novel sounds are prioritized in the auditory system
- repetitive sounds are de-emphasized / ignored by somatic nerves and the auditory cortex.

This supports Lechmere's account. 30 seconds after Lechmere entered Bucks Row, there would have been the repetitive, non-alarming sounds of some else walking into and down Bucks Row behind him. Not running, like they were trying to overtake Lechmere. Not mere seconds behind, like they were stalking him. The perfectly ordinary, repetitive trudge of someone walking well behind him. Just the kind of thing the auditory cortex would ignore.

Robert Paul was nervous about walking down Buck's Row, but not so nervous that he changed his route to work. But there's no evidence that Lechmere was even slightly nervous about walking down Bucks Row.

[Fiver]

2. It was dim along Buck's row and a dangerous neighborhood: any one walking it at that time should have been on their guard:
which would mean in particular, anticipating new sounds.

Robert Paul thought it was dangerous. Charles Lechmere had grown up in Tiger Bay, which Lechmerians love to proclaim was one of the most dangerous parts of the East End.

3. PC Neil, while occupied with investigating the body by feel & sight, immediately heard the footsteps of PC Thain from 130 yards away.
PC Thain had not even entered Buck's row, but sounds travelled exceptionally well down that narrow stone street aligned with stone buildings, with no gaps.

Period pictures show brick, not stone buildings. Bucks Row was not the echo chamber that some people make it out to be.

There are a lot perception variables that we don't have here. We don't know how good Lechmere's hearing was compared to PC Neil's. We don't know how loudly Robert Paul walked compared to PC Thain. Also, PC Neil would have been facing west, making it easier to hear PC Thain in front of him. Paul was behind Lechmere, making Paul harder to hear.

[The Baron]

Wrong thread, sorry

[The Baron]

Deleted

[FrankO]

Hi Frank,

If I try to put myself in Paul's situation. I would feel far more comfortable with Lechmere asking me, from a distance, to come and look at a body, rather than approaching and touching me on the shoulder, while I am trying to avoid him, before saying a word. I find myself surprised that the fight or flight instinct didn't kick in with Paul. Putting myself in Lechmere's innocent shoes, I would have informed Paul of the situation from a distance.

I agree that Lechmere may have chosen to accompany Paul down Hanbury St, either as part of his routine or as part of a post trauma desire to have company. However, I think that the fact remains that it did present an opportunity to Lechmere for a fact trawling exercise.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

I'm not going to argue with anything you say here.

I probably would have preferred, if I were in Paul's shoes, that Lechmere spoke before reaching him, as you do. As to why Lechmere, innocent or guilty, only spoke after Paul had arrived, I don't know. The only thing I can think of is that he didn't want to scare him away. And perhaps, seeing that Paul continued on his way towards him, he just waited until he was close.

And, yes, of course, accompanying Paul down Hanbury Street would have provided the opportunity to learn more about what Paul might or might not think about what he'd seen.

All the best,
Frank

[GBinOz]

Hi George,

I wouldn't call it very odd, but I admit that it seems a bit odd. The odd thing being that Lechmere didn't speak before he Paul had reached him, but maybe he just didn't want to speak before, because he didn't want to scare him (any more than necessary) or scare him off altogether. Of course, if he was guilty, then it might have been because he was trying to see how Paul would react to him, to get an idea if Paul had seen or heard something suspicious. On the other hand, indeed, he might have run the risk of Paul thinking he was about to be attacked & robbed and receiving one or a couple of unexpected blows on the chin.

After Lechmere and Paul's encounter with Mizen, Lechmere chose to accompany Paul along Hanbury St rather than take the slightly shorter (?) route along Old Montague St. We cannot know what, if anything, was said on that journey, but Lechmere did gain the opportunity to find out a little more about what Paul may have seen, or heard, and possibly Paul's impressions of what had happened.

We don't know if Lechmere chose to accompany Paul. It would all depend on whether Lechmere was guilty or not. So, yes, a guilty Lechmere might have chosen to accompany Paul to find out more, but, at the same time, an innocent Lechmere may very well not have chosen to accompany Paul, and Hanbury Street was just part of his normal route.

All the best,
Frank[/QUOTE]

Hi Frank,

If I try to put myself in Paul's situation. I would feel far more comfortable with Lechmere asking me, from a distance, to come and look at a body, rather than approaching and touching me on the shoulder, while I am trying to avoid him, before saying a word. I find myself surprised that the fight or flight instinct didn't kick in with Paul. Putting myself in Lechmere's innocent shoes, I would have informed Paul of the situation from a distance.

I agree that Lechmere may have chosen to accompany Paul down Hanbury St, either as part of his routine or as part of a post trauma desire to have company. However, I think that the fact remains that it did present an opportunity to Lechmere for a fact trawling exercise.

Best regards, George