Was he lying?

[Geddy2112]

I’m pretty sure Derek Osborne was the first to suggest him in Ripperana over 20 years ago. I don’t think that he knew about the name straight away and I don’t know how much later he found out about it. If I knew which issue it was I could check later today (I’m pretty sure that I’ve got all of them)

Will be of course interesting to find out your thoughts on that...

[Herlock Sholmes]

I wonder who would we be talking about if Cross had not noticed that bundle and walked on by leaving it for Paul to find or even just PC Neil. How did the Lechmere theory start? I'm guessing with the name thing then fitting things up around that. I presume the name thing was the eureka moment.

I’m pretty sure Derek Osborne was the first to suggest him in Ripperana over 20 years ago. I don’t think that he knew about the name straight away and I don’t know how much later he found out about it. If I knew which issue it was I could check later today (I’m pretty sure that I’ve got all of them)

[Geddy2112]

And there’s a chance that, after a bit of hesitation, Cross might have walked on had Paul not showed up. He might have been thinking “I don’t want anything to do with this…it’s not my problem...probably some old drunk who sleeps rough every night,” when he thinks “hold on, someone is coming, I’ll wait and I won’t have to go over there on my own.”

I wonder who would we be talking about if Cross had not noticed that bundle and walked on by leaving it for Paul to find or even just PC Neil. How did the Lechmere theory start? I'm guessing with the name thing then fitting things up around that. I presume the name thing was the eureka moment.

[Herlock Sholmes]

There's a decent chance that Robert Paul would have just kept walking if Charles Lechmere hadn't stopped him.

And there’s a chance that, after a bit of hesitation, Cross might have walked on had Paul not showed up. He might have been thinking “I don’t want anything to do with this…it’s not my problem..probably some old drunk who sleeps rough every night,” when he thinks “hold on, someone is coming, I’ll wait and I won’t have to go over there on my own.”

[Geddy2112]

There's a decent chance that Robert Paul would have just kept walking if Charles Lechmere hadn't stopped him.

Yeah because he knew she was dead, he killed her.... [/devils advocate]

[Fiver]

Hi Fiver,

To give an example from the case of seeing a body not being viewed as an urgent situation, Albert Crow saw Martha Tabram's body after she had been murdered, but he figured that it was just a sleeping vagrant, so he didn't even stop to check it out.

There's a decent chance that Robert Paul would have just kept walking if Charles Lechmere hadn't stopped him.

[Lewis C]

All you have demonstrated is your double standard and an attempt to twist my words.

Getting back to what I actually said:

This wasn't a struggling victim, crying for help. It was a prone, unmoving, body - clearly not an urgent situation. Neither Lechmere or Paul ever treated the situation as urgent.

Let me repeat that last part, since you clearly missed it - Neither Lechmere or Paul ever treated the situation as urgent.

Both men lived in a bad part of town for decades. They had almost certainly seen prone, unmoving, bodies before. Some were the abject poor, sleeping rough in the street. Some were people passed out drunk. Neither of these was an urgent case in need of immediate attention. And if the woman was dead, that wasn't an urgent case in need of immediate attention, either, since she would be beyond help.

Hi Fiver,

To give an example from the case of seeing a body not being viewed as an urgent situation, Albert Crow saw Martha Tabram's body after she had been murdered, but he figured that it was just a sleeping vagrant, so he didn't even stop to check it out.

[Herlock Sholmes]

To be honest, since it's probably one of the most debated suspects I'm surprised there are many left believing he did it. All the points I've seen posted in favour of him being Jack have been debunked many many times. It's bizarre...

As Roger pointed out recently Cross seems more of a suspect to some because we can place him at the scene. He feels more real as a suspect for them. This resonates with many people especially with one of Christer’s mantra’s added, the ‘next to a freshly killed…’ bit as if that narrows it down to Cross alone. Apparently it’s ok to suggest that Paul disturbed Cross but it’s fantasy to suggest that Cross might have disturbed someone else. Every single point has been shown to be nothing. The case against Cross wouldn’t have made it to court. Take away the misinformation given to Scobie and he’s have said the same. Honesty John Richardson is a better suspect than Cross. And he’s a totally crap suspect.

[Fiver]

Soooo you are ruling Cross out?

Charles Allen Lechmere should be Crossed off of the suspect list.

[Geddy2112]

On consideration….yes.

To be honest, since it's probably one of the most debated suspects I'm surprised there are many left believing he did it. All the points I've seen posted in favour of him being Jack have been debunked many many times. It's bizarre...

[Herlock Sholmes]

Soooo you are ruling Cross out?

On consideration….yes.

[Geddy2112]

Is the ‘case’ against Cross an embarrassing mish-mash of manipulated evidence, the misuse of the English language, gross exaggeration, opinion stated as fact and rank self-interest?

Yes it certainly is.

Soooo you are ruling Cross out?

[Fiver]

You mean dead?

Than I agree,
absolutely no urgency required if it was a dead woman.

Are you arguing that Lechmere knew the woman was dead?

Again, I agree.

Good point!

All you have demonstrated is your double standard and an attempt to twist my words.

Getting back to what I actually said:

This wasn't a struggling victim, crying for help. It was a prone, unmoving, body - clearly not an urgent situation. Neither Lechmere or Paul ever treated the situation as urgent.

Let me repeat that last part, since you clearly missed it - Neither Lechmere or Paul ever treated the situation as urgent.

Both men lived in a bad part of town for decades. They had almost certainly seen prone, unmoving, bodies before. Some were the abject poor, sleeping rough in the street. Some were people passed out drunk. Neither of these was an urgent case in need of immediate attention. And if the woman was dead, that wasn't an urgent case in need of immediate attention, either, since she would be beyond help.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Math analysis of the movement of Lechmere/Paul down Buck’s row

1. First, I will start off with my findings and then conclusions that can be derived from the findings.
2. Second, I will go over the analysis that produced these findings.

Findings:

1. Comparative speeds, distance of separation, times….

Yards Lechmere was ahead of Paul when Paul entered Bath street	Time for Lechmere to begin crossing to middle of street, hear Paul, and then see Paul for the 1rst time	Distance Lech walked up Buck’s row with Paul trailing	Time Paul was trailing Lechmere up Buck’s row w/o Lechmere knowing	Distance of separation with Paul trailing Lechmere up Buck’s row	Speed up Buck’s row Lech Paul
60 yards	6 seconds	70 yards	42 seconds	53 - 51 yards	3.6 mph	3.8 mph
60 yards	12 seconds	66 yards	40 seconds	60 - 61 yards	3.6 mph	3.56 mph
70 yards	6 seconds	69 yards	39 seconds	63 - 51 yards	3.6 mph	4.1 mph
70 yards	12 seconds	64 yards	36 seconds	66 - 62 yards	3.6 mph	3.83 mph

II. Time Lechmere waits for Paul, once footsteps heard, while standing a few steps from body of Polly Nichols:

60 yards	6 seconds	time between hearing/ seeing Paul 2 seconds	time of approach after being Paul is seen 21.5 seconds	total time that Lechmere waits 23.5 seconds
60 yards	12 seconds	8 seconds	23 seconds	31 seconds
70 yards	6 seconds	2 seconds	20 seconds	22 seconds
70 yards	12 seconds	8 seconds	21.5 seconds	29.5 seconds

Conclusion


A: “In general, the average jogging speed is 4 to 6 mph.”

https://www.healthline.com/health/average-jogging-speed


Option #1: Paul, who has walked this route for 10 + years, is going faster

than the speed we would expect him to proceed to make it to work at 4 am

…. he either is close to or exceeds the speed of jogging, while closing the gap to about 50 yards, right before Lech moves across the street, towards the body.


Note: 50 yards is 38 % of the distance over which PC Neil heard PC Thain


Option #2: Paul goes at an acceptable speed, and is 60 + yards away from Lechmere at all times, while going up Buck’s road. However, in this case we would have to believe that Lechmere waits 30 seconds for Paul to arrive, once he hears Paul’s footsteps, all the while standing a few steps away from Polly Nichols’ body.


Logistics:

A: corner of Bath/Forster to Brady street - 55 yards

B: corner of Bath/Brady to Buck’s Row - 15 yards

C: Buck’s row to Polly Nichols body - 130 yards

D: Total distance from corner of Bath/Forster to body - 190 yards

E: Distance of Paul from Lechmere once spotted on Buck’s row:

30 - 40 yards


Assumptions:

1. Both Lechmere and Paul both walk at constant rates of speed
2. Lechmere is 55 + yards ahead of Paul, once Paul enters Bath street

• this ensures that Paul does not see Lechmere under the lights of the Albion brewery 3. We will consider Paul as 40 yards away from Lechmere once spotted

on Buck’s row.

1. Lechmere’s daily rate of speed to Pickfords to arrive at 4 am:

1.8 miles/30 minutes = 3.6 mph
2. Paul’s expected rate of speed to arrive at corbett’s court - Spitafields by 4 am that day:

1600 yards /900 seconds = 1.78 y/s

= 3.64 mph

• from the entrance of Buck’s row, Paul believes he has 15 minutes to go 1600 yards

Additional assumptions:

1. Lechmere does not stop until standing in the middle of Buck’s row
2. It takes Lechmere 4 seconds to leave curb, walk to middle of street, hear sound and look back down Buck’s row
3. An additional time will be added to this for Lechmere to see Paul enter his field of vision from the darkness:

total time between leaving street and seeing Paul:


t = 6 to 12 seconds


Equations employed:


t = time from start to when Lechmere sees body

Total distance to body from Forster entrance: d = 200 yards

Lech

1. A ⨶ t = 200 - D : D = starting distance from Bath street entrance
2. A = 3.6 mph = 1.76 yards/second

Paul

1. B ⨶ t = 200 - ( 40 + x) :

x = distance Paul walks between Lech leaving curb & seeing Paul
2. B ⨶ 6 = x


Boundary conditions:

At start: Lechmere has a 55 + yard lead {60 & 70 yards}

At end: Lechmere is 40 yards ahead, when Paul is spotted.

There’s no need for any of the above.


Is it physically possible that when Cross entered Bucks Row, Robert Paul might have been around 70 yards behind him?

Yes it is.

Is it possible that one human being might not have heard another human being when they are 70 yards apart (if neither of them were playing a saxophone at the time)?

Yes it is.

Is it possible that one person might make less noise when walking than another person?

Yes it is.

Is it possible for one person to have hearing that isn’t as good as another persons?

Yes it is.

Is it the case that the transcript of an inquest isn’t a verbatim account of what was said?

Yes it is.

Is it possible that Cross might have been undecided as to what to do, causing an unknown time period of hesitation, before he heard Paul?

Yes it is.

Is it true to say that people don’t all act in a uniform, prescribed way when faced with an unusual/stressful situation?

Yes it is.

Do we have a single piece of evidence that precludes another killer who fled the scene just before Cross arrived?

No we don’t.

Did Cross gain even the slightest of advantages from using his stepfather’s name instead of his birth name?

No he didn’t.

Can we assume that Mizen’s version of what was said was correct and that Cross and Paul were wrong (or lied)?

No we can’t.

Is there anything at all in the evidence that suggests that Cross might have been at the scene longer than he claimed?

No there isn’t.

Can we name a serial killer who committed murder in the street on his way to work?

No we can’t.

Can we name a serial killer who stayed with the corpse (rather than fleeing) to chat to a passerby?

No we can’t.

Is there anything about Cross that we know that leaves us suspicious of him as a person?

No there isn’t.

Is it fair to assume that the police questioned him?

Yes it is.

Did they find anything even remotely suspicious about him?

No they didn’t.

Is it likely that Cross would have committed murder whilst he was on duty for Pickford’s?

No it isn’t.

Can we name anyone who found a body in the street who turned out to have been the killer?

No we can’t.

Is there a single thing that so much as causes a raised eyebrows in terms of anything that Cross said or did that morning which might lead anyone to suspect him of being the killer?

NO. NOT A THING

Is the ‘case’ against Cross an embarrassing mish-mash of manipulated evidence, the misuse of the English language, gross exaggeration, opinion stated as fact and rank self-interest?

Yes it certainly is.

[Fiver]

5. Lechmere says that he never heard Paul's footsteps until he was crossing to the middle of the street, towards Polly Nichols body.
- Lech's defenders, who employ the antiquated footsteps drown out the other footsteps theory,
would need to explain why Lech finally heard these footsteps at this point: he was not only still walking,
but his brain was occupied visually with analyzing the recumbent body of Polly Nichols .... downgrading auditory cortical impulses.

Auditory masking is an antiquated theory?

That will be news to the actual scientists.