The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Fiver]

Apart from when he gave it in the inquest... I believe it was in Dew's memoirs that he gave a good character statement on Lechmere which will probably have come second had. To wit he was thoroughly checked over by the police.

Dew's account is here on Casebook. It was written in 1938, and Dew himself said "In writing of the "Jack the Ripper crimes", it must be remembered that they took place fifty years ago, and it may be that small errors as to dates and days may have crept in."

Here's a key bit

"On 1st September, 1888, the Ripper struck a third time. His victim was found in the early hours of the morning lying in the gateway of Essex Wharf, in Bucks Row, just off Brady Street, and not far from Hanbury Street, the scene later of a duplicate murder.

Bucks Row was just a few yards outside the boundary of " H " Division to which I was attached. The district was squalid. The spot for such a crime was ideal. Close by were a number of slaughterhouses.

No better illustration of East-End conditions at the time could be afforded than by the behaviour of Charles ______ , a middle-aged carman, who was the first to see the body.

The carman was on his way through Bucks Row to his day's work when he saw a huddled mass in the gateway of Essex Wharf. He crossed from one side of the street to the other to investigate.

The light was just sufficient to show him that the form was that of a woman and that she had been mishandled. Her clothing had been disarranged and her bonnet had fallen from her head. There was something strange too about the position of the woman's head.

In any other district of London such a discovery would have sent the man dashing for a policeman. But this was Whitechapel, where crimes of violence and outrage were of everyday occurrence.

The carman shook the woman. She did not stir. He decided it was a case of a woman who had fainted following assault, and, making a mental note to report the matter to the first police constable he saw, he went on his way.

A curious thing then happened. The carman had gone but a short distance when he saw another man on the opposite side of the street whose behaviour was certainly suspicious. The other man seemed to seek to avoid the carman, who went over to him, and said:

"Come and look here. Here's a woman been knocked about."

Together the two men went to the gateway where the poor woman was lying. The newcomer felt her heart. His verdict was not reassuring.

"I think she's breathing," he told his companion, "but it's very little if she is."

The couple parted, ________ promising, as he walked away, to call a policeman.

All this was afterwards told in evidence by the carman. It never had the corroboration of the other man. The police made repeated appeals for him to come forward, but he never did so.

Why did he remain silent? Was it guilty knowledge that caused him to ignore the appeals of the police?

In any other district and in any other circumstances this would have been a natural inference, but in the East End of London at this time the man might have had a dozen reasons for avoiding the publicity which would have followed. He might have been a criminal; or he might have been afraid, as so many were, to risk the linking of his name with a Ripper-crime.

The carman reported his early-morning discovery to a policeman, but in the meantime, P.C. Neal, making his regular beat along Bucks Row, had en the huddled form lying in the gateway.

The policeman, with the aid of his bullseye, saw what the others had overlooked. The woman's head had been almost severed from the body."

[Geddy2112]

I was thinking it to be a hypothetical story, but at the end it seemed like the real deal.

I'm sorry Geddy, how horrible.

Yes it's a very true story. However I'm not even sure my son knows I found a dead body. So I presume when I get grand children they won't know either and thus in 130 years time there will be no oral history from my family that Great Grand Daddy was 'found next to a freshly killed woman.'

[Geddy2112]

They didn't even know his Christian name Geddy.
Maybe they called his employer, maybe they didn't even do that much - its of course pure speculation.

That would be the extent of their 'check' on Lechmere's activities: very little to zip.

Apart from when he gave it in the inquest... I believe it was in Dew's memoirs that he gave a good character statement on Lechmere which will probably have come second had. To wit he was thoroughly checked over by the police.

[Newbie]

A little true story for you...

Once upon a time a teenage Geddy was doing his job, paper round. He stuck to his route because it was the fastest. He did the same route at the same time five days a week and often got waves from people on that route or the odd hello. People would easily have recognised him because he was at the same place at the same time most days of the week.
Half way through his route he would drop some papers in the OAPs bungalows and one in particular he would stop for say a minute to chat to the old lady who always without fail met him at the garden gate. Bless her she never got much company so he always said hello.
Geddy often had a friend help him. They would walk together for most of the route alternating the posting of the papers from one side of the street to the other, she did the 'odds' he did the 'evens.' Now where the OAP bungalows were the street widened with a little grassy area in between. So Geddy did the bungalows, his friend the other side of the green.
One day in early November Geddy was doing the bungalows and noticed the lady was not at her gate. He was quite concerned so walked down the path to the side door of the bungalow, the door was ajar so he pushed the door open to discover a 'freshly killed woman' lying on the floor. He stepped back out of the door way in shock and horror. At the same time his friend saw him at the door way where the freshly killed woman was and ran across the green to see what had happened. In effect Geddy's friend had spotted him near a freshly killed woman.
They both ran as fast as they could to alert a neighbour and got them to call for the Police. Geddy was questioned that evening by the Police in his 'work' clothes (School uniform) and again the next day in his school uniform at great length. He had his finger prints taken for elimination purposes and all was well. Not once was Geddy suspected of any wrong doing and neither was his friend. Before anyone states 'ah they were just kids' indeed they were but the actual murderer was only 11 at the time.

I was thinking it to be a hypothetical story, but at the end it seemed like the real deal.

I'm sorry Geddy, how horrible.

[Newbie]

Why should an innocent man be explored further? He was checked and cleared at the time. He did not act suspiciously. He did what any normal innocent person would do.
How can we suggest 'how a guilty Lechmere..' would do anything when he was not guilty. It's a pointless exercise and involves making stuff up and when trying to convince the world someone is the most notorious serial killer in history that is a very unsafe thing to do.

There is a very good reason why Christer and Ed have not come up with anything new for the last ten years or so to strengthen their case and you know why that is? yes, because there is nothing.

They didn't even know his Christian name Geddy.
Maybe they called his employer, maybe they didn't even do that much - its of course pure speculation.

That would be the extent of their 'check' on Lechmere's activities: very little to zip.

[Fiver]

Lechmere/Cross theory V2.0:

Basic points:


1- Lechmere was seen alone in the dark near a freshly killed woman

2- The victim was last seen alive about half past two, she was alone, there was no sighting of her in company with another man

3- Lechmere didn't notify Mizen that the victim looked as if she had been outraged

4- Lechmere gave just the name Cross at the inquest

5- Lechmere was involved in an accident that kilked a boy

6- In one account Lechmere refused to prop the woman up

7- Three constables didn't notice anything unusual and nothing attracted their attention that night

8- Lechmere might have got a chance to get rid of a knife

9- The true murderer of Nichols hadn't been convicted

10- Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed a pool of blood under the woman's head or blood oozing from a throat cut, there is a chance that one of them might have been lying



The Baron

1) True.
2) Irrelevant. Tells us nothing about who killed Nichols.
3) Irrelevant. Neither did Paul and it tells us nothing about who killed Nichols.
4) Irrelevant. Lechmere made no attempt to hide his identity from anyone.
5) Irrelevant. Tells us nothing about who killed Nichols.
6) A point in Lechmere's favor. Propping up the body would have provided an innocent excuse.
7) Irrelevant. Tells us nothing about who killed Nichols.
8) Speculation based on the assumption that Lechmere was the Ripper.
9) Irrelevant. Tells us nothing about who killed Nichols.
10) Speculation.

[Newbie]

Here are my notes for Thomas Cross’s death at the age of 34:


Thomas Cross's death entry for 18th December 1869.

He died at 11 Mary Ann Street, a police constable aged 34.

The cause of death was:

• 'fatty degeneration - years
• Dropsy 5 months
• Uroemia 3 days

Certified: The informant was Margaret Low of 14 Mary Ann St. (who signed with an X)


Fatty degeneration (steatosis): The initial stage of ALD (alcohol liver disease) is fatty liver, or steatosis, which is characterized by fat accumulation in liver cells. If drinking continues, ALD can progress to more severe conditions, including:

• Alcoholic cirrhosis: The final stage of ALD, where healthy liver tissue is permanently replaced by scar tissue. This irreversible damage prevents the liver from functioning normally.
• Other symptoms: Swelling in the ankles, feet, and abdomen

Dropsy (from poster Lechmere): Dropsy was a term used to describe the swelling of the body due to the excessive retention of fluids.


Edema (dropsy): a common complication of advanced cirrhosis, a type of liver disease that can cause fluid to build up in the legs and ankles


end stage:

Uroemia (Uremia): Both uremia and uremic syndrome have been used interchangeably to denote a very high plasma urea concentration that is the result of renal failure.

• Kidney (renal) failure is one outcome of advanced cirrhosis and acute hepatitis (or alcoholic hepatitis)
• Physicians involved in the care of patients with cirrhosis recognize that the development of renal dysfunction is associated with significant morbidity and mortality.

Non alcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD)?
risk factors:
* diabetes
* obesity (Thomas Cross was a big man)

Most people live a long life with nonalcoholic fatty liver disease (NAFLD). However, NAFLD may reduce life expectancy by about 4.2 to 4.4 years.

Why has it not been pointed out that Thomas Cross was more than likely an alcoholic?

[The Baron]

That's the Lechmere argument in a nutshell

Maybe you mean Version 1.0 of the theory, where the authors believe Lechmere was the ripper.

I don't.

That theory is buggy, I am trying to isolate true points that make Lechmere a person of interest, all those are not evidence of guilt on the carman behalf.

The murderer was not convicted, you have to keep looking.


Do you miss the Diary thread?!



The Baron

[rjpalmer]

9- The true murderer of Nichols hadn't been convicted

The true murderer of Nichols hasn't been convicted...so let's blame the guy who found the body.



Good one, Baron.

That's the Lechmere argument in a nutshell.

[The Baron]

Lechmere/Cross theory V2.0:

Basic points:


1- Lechmere was seen alone in the dark near a freshly killed woman

2- The victim was last seen alive about half past two, she was alone, there was no sighting of her in company with another man

3- Lechmere didn't notify Mizen that the victim looked as if she had been outraged

4- Lechmere gave just the name Cross at the inquest

5- Lechmere was involved in an accident that kilked a boy

6- In one account Lechmere refused to prop the woman up

7- Three constables didn't notice anything unusual and nothing attracted their attention that night

8- Lechmere might have got a chance to get rid of a knife

9- The true murderer of Nichols hadn't been convicted

10- Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed a pool of blood under the woman's head or blood oozing from a throat cut, there is a chance that one of them might have been lying



The Baron

[Geddy2112]

I am not looking to match the dots with any police officer's route.

Then why use it as an example?

First, you cannot know the exact location of any constable with any degree of certainty at any given time

We can be mighty close though looking at the evidence.

Second they were knocking people up, a constable could have adjusted.

And? Do you not think the knocking up was built into the route timings? Seems sensible to me.

Third a constable could have gone back forth left right at any time for any imaginable and unimaginable reason, they were no robots

Or as likely they might not have.

Fourth it might have been a person, not necessarily a police officer

The evidence tells us not.

Fifth Guiltmere might have heard just sounds or footsteps.

He did, Robert Pauls. Your point?

Sixth Guiltmere might have seen a ghost!

Erm time to stop this nonsense now I think...

[The Baron]

I am not looking to match the dots with any police officer's route.

First, you cannot know the exact location of any constable with any degree of certainty at any given time

Second they were knocking people up, a constable could have adjusted.

Third a constable could have gone back forth left right at any time for any imaginable and unimaginable reason, they were no robots

Fourth it might have been a person, not necessarily a police officer

Fifth Guiltmere might have heard just sounds or footsteps.

Sixth Guiltmere might have seen a ghost!



The Baron

[Fiver]

Back to the alternative scenario:

Lechmere/Cross Theory, Batch 2.0, Servicepack 1.0


A guilty Lechmere, let's call him Guiltmere, killed Nichols and headed west, he noticed a constable/person walking out of Court Street and moving west (the red dots)


Guiltmere hesitated, got confused, turned back, walked, and threw the knife somewhere here (the yellow area)


He heared footsteps, waited, and encountered Paul.







The Baron

The red dots do not match the beat of any of the police constables. Neither do your blue dots or green dots.

[Geddy2112]

Blue dots and Green dots are other possible sightings of a constable/person

What possible sightings? No other people are reported in the evidence as been seen.

Why did your guilty Lechmere not turn into Winthrop street and down through Woods Buildings to Whitechapel High Street then?

[The Baron]

Blue dots and Green dots are other possible sightings of a constable/person







The Baron