The cross/lechmere theory - a newbie's thoughts

[Geddy2112]

As you know, I am firmly in the Anderson's suspect camp, myself. The new Documentary with John Malcolm, Patricia Marshall, Adrian Morris and Myself is due out very soon

Very interesting, will it be on mainstream media or just YouTube etc?

[The Baron]

It may well be a well reasoned assumption, but it's still an assumption.

As you know, I am firmly in the Anderson's suspect camp, myself. The new Documentary with John Malcolm, Patricia Marshall, Adrian Morris and Myself is due out very soon

Steve

Bless you Steve, Malcolm, Marshall, Morris!

Can't wait.



The Baron

[Elamarna]

But when he says then I saw a man standing in the middle of the street, that dosn't in any way imply that he hold some extra information back, it indicates he didn't hear or see him walking in front of him until he saw him there.


Again, I am a Kosminski man, I don't believe in Lechmere's guilt, but thats how I see it.



The Baron

It may well be a well reasoned assumption, but it's still an assumption.

As you know, I am firmly in the Anderson's suspect camp, myself. The new Documentary with John Malcolm, Patricia Marshall, Adrian Morris and Myself is due out very soon

Steve

[The Baron]

That's simply an assumption, Paul is never asked when he was first aware of someone in front of him.
if he had been, maybe people would view it differently.

Inside Bucks Row contains some recent photos of Bucks Row after dark, even with the lighting from the newly openened underground entrance, and vast amounts of light pollution from the City, its still very difficult to make people out.


Steve

But when he says then I saw a man standing in the middle of the street, that dosn't in any way imply that he hold some extra information back, it indicates he didn't hear or see him walking in front of him until he saw him there.


Again, I am a Kosminski man, I don't believe in Lechmere's guilt, but thats how I see it.



The Baron

[Elamarna]

Lechmere/Cross theory V2.0 Servicepack 2.1

Updated basic points:




12- Paul didn't see or hear Lechmere walking in front of him before Lechmere appeared near the body of Nichols

That's simply an assumption, Paul is never asked when he was first aware of someone in front of him.
if he had been, maybe people would view it differently.

Inside Bucks Row contains some recent photos of Bucks Row after dark, even with the lighting from the newly openened underground entrance, and vast amounts of light pollution from the City, its still very difficult to make people out.


Steve

[The Baron]

My view remains as it always does, that is Lechmere is a viable suspect, he's in the area, and the first to see the body of Mary Ann.
However, in my view, on present research, he's not a particularly strong candidate.

I see the issue somewhat differently to you, in that I see too many pro Lechmere people stating there is no other choice, some even state its been proven beyond reasonable doubt, such is clearly incorrect. Such comments, for me, is why some of those who don't support the Lechmere theory, respond as they do.
I dont think the case as presented bt either Mr Holmgren or Mr Stow, should shake the confidence of any who have seriously looked at the theory.

Steve

Agree completely, I don't consider Lechmere a strong suspect, he is for me a man of interest, I do believe that the whole Lechmere case could have been presented better and refuted better, and you did a great job at that.



The Baron

[Elamarna]

Hi Steve,

Of course there are counter arguments, all are fair arguments even, but that doesn't mean the rised points that make Lechmere a person of interest are meaningless either, as the anti-Lechmerians want to believe.

The problem as I see it, is that most posters when they hear the name Lechmere they automatically retreat into a defensive mode, that tells that Fisherman has managed to shake their confidence of the man's innocence.



The Baron

My view remains as it always does, that is Lechmere is a viable suspect, he's in the area, and the first to see the body of Mary Ann.
However, in my view, on present research, he's not a particularly strong candidate.

I see the issue somewhat differently to you, in that I see too many pro Lechmere people stating there is no other choice, some even state its been proven beyond reasonable doubt, such is clearly incorrect. Such comments, for me, is why some of those who don't support the Lechmere theory, respond as they do.
I dont think the case as presented bt either Mr Holmgren or Mr Stow, should shake the confidence of any who have seriously looked at the theory.

Steve

[The Baron]

I have?

So you are secretly convinced by the Bury theory and are terrified that William Henry Bury was Jack the Ripper? And this is what fuels your resistance?

Stay well good man



The Baron

[rjpalmer]

You have just proved my point.


The Baron

I have?

So you are secretly convinced by the Bury theory and are terrified that William Henry Bury was Jack the Ripper? And this is what fuels your resistance?

[The Baron]

You have just proved my point.


The Baron

[rjpalmer]

that tells that Fisherman has managed to shake their confidence of the man's innocence.

If that's your conclusion, your imagination has gotten the better of you.

People like to point out weak arguments and give resistance to reckless accusations. That's all it is. No one's confidence is shaken by Christer's arguments.

One could just as easily claim that your own recent commentary shows that you are deeply shaken by the possibility that William Henry Bury was Jack the Ripper.

Is that the case?

[The Baron]

Lechmere/Cross theory V2.0 Servicepack 2.1

Updated basic points:


1- Lechmere was seen alone in the dark near a freshly killed woman

2- The victim was last seen alive about half past two, she was alone, there was no sighting of her in company with another man

3- Lechmere didn't notify Mizen that the victim looked as if she had been outraged

4- Lechmere gave just the name Cross at the inquest

5- Lechmere was involved in an accident that killed a boy

6- In one account Lechmere refused to prop the woman up

7- Three constables didn't notice anything unusual and nothing attracted their attention that night

8- Lechmere might have got a chance to get rid of a knife

9- The true murderer of Nichols hadn't been convicted

10- Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed a pool of blood under the woman's head or blood oozing from a throat cut, there is a chance that one of them might have been lying

11- According to detective inspector Dew, Lechmere went to the woman, shaked her, and noticed there was something strange about the position of the woman's head (it was almost severed from the body) before meeting with Paul, he failed to notice any blood or cut, and failed to mention this to Mizen or to the Jury

12- Paul didn't see or hear Lechmere walking in front of him before Lechmere appeared near the body of Nichols



The Baron

[The Baron]

I don't mean to push this, but maybe pro Lechmere people could read the sourced to counter arguments given Inside Bucks Row

Hi Steve,

Of course there are counter arguments, all are fair arguments even, but that doesn't mean the rised points that make Lechmere a person of interest are meaningless either, as the anti-Lechmerians want to believe.

The problem as I see it, is that most posters when they hear the name Lechmere they automatically retreat into a defensive mode, that tells that Fisherman has managed to shake their confidence of the man's innocence.



The Baron

[Fiver]

When one make a diagnosis, one does not consider the symptoms separately, one considers them all together and attempts to identify the underlyng pathology. If one has two concurrent pathologies, that's another issue: chronic kidney disease and heart disease for instance, neither initiating the other.

True.

Liver disease was the safest and easiest choice, of which there are 3 basic types:

1. Alcoholic liver disease (ALD)
2. Non alcoholic fatty liver disease (NALD)
3. Non alcoholic steatohepititis (NASH)

Thomas Cross's death certificate does not state what organ or organs were affected. The November 1897 Journal of Medicine and Science lists fatty degeneration of the heart, arteries, kidney, eye, liver, and brain. Assuming that it was the liver and only the liver, is not 'the safest and easiest choice", it is adjusting the data to fit the theory.

1. knowledge about NALD & NASH did not exist in 1888: but there was knowledge about the histology of ALD ... the fatty degeneration, no doubt, was attributed to alcohol excess in the mind of the doctor.

The terms NALD and NASH didn't exist, but period doctors were well aware that alcoholism was a cause, but not the only cause of fatty degeneration in the liver. The November 1897 Journal of Medicine and Science says "The point I wish to enforce is that these diseases resulting from fatty degeneration come largely from eating starches and sugar in excess."

[Geddy2112]

How many years have we been putting up with this kind of stuff? Why the hell do they do it?

Well this appeared in the Daily Telegraph on the 31st Aug 2012. You can possibly work out where the Missing Evidence got it's angles from...

Was Jack the Ripper a cart driver from Bethnal Green?
Two Jack The Ripper experts believe they have found the identity of the Whitechapel serial killer. A new theory suggests Jack The Ripper was the cart driver who told police he discovered the first victim.
It has been the subject of macabre speculation for more than 100 years but now two Jack The Ripper experts believe they have found the identity of the Whitechapel serial killer.
Authors Christer Holmgren and Edward Stow believe the most likely suspect for Jack The Ripper is Charles Cross, a carman who claimed to have found the first victim prostitute Polly Nichols on August 31 1888.
Cross was discovered crouching over the body by a witness Robert Paul.
He told police he had been walking through Bucks Row on his way to Pickfords’ depot in Broad Street at around 3am when he found the body of Nichols.
But Holmgren and Stow believe he could have been the killer, disturbed as he was mutilating the body of Nichols.
Paul claimed he had seen Cross standing by the body of Nichols when he had arrived but Cross later told police he had been standing away from the body in the road.
And all the subsequent murders took place between his home in Doveton Street in Bethnal Green and his work at Broad Street at times when he would have been walking to work.
Mr Stow said: "We think it Charles Cross, the first person who found that first body. He was seen crouching over Polly Nichols and he was trying to cover up some of the wounds.
"He hasn't been the subject of a lot of investigation and has only crept up very vaguely in census records.
"We have found out that he gave a false name to the police. His real name was Charles Latchmere.
"The police at the time were looking for some sort of special individual. But most crimes turn out to be someone quite ordinary.
"He walked past every single murder scene on his way to work. He is the best suspect so far."
Mary Ann "Polly" Nichols was attacked as she walked home from a night walking the Whitechapel Road.
Her throat was slit twice from left to right and her body mutilated.
The body of second Ripper victim, Annie Chapman, was found on September 8 in the back yard of 29 Hanbury Street, Spitalfields. Her abdomen was slashed entirely open, and it was later discovered that the uterus had been removed.
Elizabeth Stride and Catherine Eddowes were killed in the early morning of Sunday 30 September 1888.
Eddowes' body was found in Mitre Square, in the City of London, three-quarters of an hour after Stride's. The throat was severed, and the abdomen was ripped open by a long, deep, jagged wound. The left kidney and the major part of the uterus had been removed.
The final victim, Mary Jane Kelly was discovered lying on the bed in the single room where she lived at 13 Miller's Court off Dorset Street, Spitalfields on November 9 1888. The throat had been severed down to the spine, and the abdomen virtually emptied of its organs. Even her heart was missing.
The removal of the organs led the police to suspect he was an educated upper-class man, possibly a doctor or an aristocrat. Suggestions for the culprit included Prince Albert Victor, the grandson of Queen Victoria, and Sir William Gull, the Queen's doctor.
Holmgren and Stow made the claims on the anniversary of the first murder at a re-enactment in Bethnal Green.
Cross died in 1920 and was survived by his wife who eventually passed away on 12 September 1940 in Stratford.

How many material inaccuracies in that lot... answer quite a few.