All roads lead to Lechmere.

[rjpalmer]

It took me some effort, for his name was wrongly given as James Cron, but I'm confident that I found James Cross, PC Thomas Cross's brother, in the 1871 UK census, living at No. 16A Temple Street, Hackney. (Dalston)

His wife Harriett is listed as being born around 1820, but her baptism dates to 1817, so I think she's a bit older than that--roughly 13 years his senior. Interesting that he's listed as having no occupation.

What confirms this is James and Harriett Cross, beyond the ages, names, and having been born in Hereford[shire] is that a nephew living in the same household is given as Charles Phillips, which aligns with Harriett's birth name, Harriett Phillips of Madley.



There is a James Wilkin, born Hereford in the same household, evidently, which is probably relevant.

On second thought, that looks more like James Wilkes.

RP

[rjpalmer]

Regarding Maria Lechmere and her 'Boy Constable,' this is probably old news to some, but there's a bloke on Ancestry.com who has quite an elaborate tree for the Lechmere tribe, and he claims that Thomas Cross's older brother James Cross (born around 1831) married a woman named Harriett Phillips (widow of a Robert Eveness) in Breinton, Herefordshire on 11 July 1860. I'm not immediately finding the couple in 1861.

It is a somewhat compelling argument because Tom Cross, as discovered by Gary Barnett, was born in Breinton, but it would be interesting if there was more supportive evidence for this match between James and Harriett, as the documentation regarding this couple seems quite sketchy (I can't trace them elsewhere), but if correct, Harriet appears to have been born in or around 1818 (this according to the documentation this bloke has found), so this would make Harriett 11 or 12 years James's senior, roughly the same age gap between Thomas Cross and Maria. So, lightning struck twice, not once among the Cross brothers when it came to marrying substantially older women.

What am I driving at?

Well, I'm speculating, but it would mean that both the Cross brothers, James and Thomas, married women a decade older than they were, which could suggest that for some unknown reason (perhaps a psychological reason or something to do with the dynamics of the family) they were the ones who were attracted to older women, with the implication that Maria Lechmere wasn't necessarily attracted to young men, per se, though she did marry Thomas. Her other two husbands were not youngsters.

Anyway, I thought it was mildly interesting, but more work is needed, but I'm probably not the one who is going to do it. Fire away.

[Fiver]

Are you able to check out the other people "all men good and true" in the article, like Harry Dawson and George Shepard? Charles Allen would have been over 50 in 1901, whilst the Turville St Charles was 25. I know you get a mix of ages in these places but occasionally it can be mostly older people or younger people. If Dawson and Shepard are more Lechmere's age it doesn't prove anything, of course, but if they were closer in age to Turville Charles, the probability swings further in his direction.

I'll see if I can find anything.

[Hair Bear]

Interesting find. The question is whether this is "our" Charles Cross.

The Pitts Head is about 9 minutes walk from 22 Doveton Street.

The Panther, which is where the article's Charles Cross would have met the article's John Hall, was about 19 minutes from 22 Doveton Street. A Thomas Brierley was the licensee of the Panther in 1884. Sometime between then and 1891, John Hall became the licensee, with Henry Forster replacing him later that same year.

So this Charles Cross needs to have been an adult living near the Panther sometime between 1884 and 1891 and still alive in 1901.

Using Ancestry, electoral registers show

Charles Cross - 16 Turville street, Bethnal Green South West 1894 and 1895.

Charles George Cross - Streatley buildings, Bethnal Green South West 1898

The Turville Street Cross lived a lot closer to the Panther than Charles Lechmere.

The only Charles George Cross that I can find lived 1847 to 1898, so he can't be the Charles Cross of the article.

Checking the 1891 Census, we find the Turville Street Cross was living there in 1891, aged 25, with a wife Ann, and children Charles and James. His occupation is Stick Dresser, whatever that is.

This doesn't eliminate Charles Lechmere from being the man in the article, but the Turville Street Cross seems more likely to me.

Are you able to check out the other people "all men good and true" in the article, like Harry Dawson and George Shepard? Charles Allen would have been over 50 in 1901, whilst the Turville St Charles was 25. I know you get a mix of ages in these places but occasionally it can be mostly older people or younger people. If Dawson and Shepard are more Lechmere's age it doesn't prove anything, of course, but if they were closer in age to Turville Charles, the probability swings further in his direction.

[drstrange169]

I can't speak for what happened to Lechmere's, but I had to walk a mile and a half to school from 5 onwards (usually with my older siblings) until I got a bike, as did many of my school mates. It was a different time back then and I'm sure even more so in the Victorian era. I know my mother had to walk over a mile just to get fresh water back in the 1920's. The world is an ever changing place, you can't judge the past by modern standards.

[Mark J D]

Looking more at what Bett's Street school records are online, James Alfred Lechmere left on 5 March 1888, while his sister Louisa left 11 June 1888.

Chris Scott tells us that Louisa Annie was born on 30 Jul 1882. If this is true, she was not even six years old on 11 June 1888. Is it seriously being suggested that, prior to that date, she had been walking more than a mile from and to Doveton Street every school day? Or was she just doing the 470 metres from James Street?

M.

[Fiver]

Actually, folks, we know better than that, thanks to poor little Harriet Emma.

M.

Thanks for the info. According to Harriet Emma's baptismal records, the family was still living at 20 James Street on 19 February, 1888. Sometime between then and
12 Jun 1888, the family moved to 22 Doveton Street.

Looking more at what Bett's Street school records are online, James Alfred Lechmere left on 5 March 1888, while his sister Louisa left 11 June 1888.

[Mark J D]

... So we know that the Charles Allen Lechmere family moved to 22 Doveton Street some time between June of 1886 and June of 1888.

Actually, folks, we know better than that, thanks to poor little Harriet Emma.

M.

[Fiver]

1881 James Street

June 1888 Moved to Doveton Street

You are making an assumption about when the Lechemeres moved to 22 Doveton that is not borne out by the records.

30 Nov 1885 - George William Lechmere is admitted as a pupil at Lower Chapman Street School. The family is living at 20 James Street. (The record also shows George William transferred to the Betts Street School 4 June 1886)

12 Jun 1888 - George William, James Alfred, and Thomas Allen Lechmere are admitted as pupils at Essex Street School. The family is living at 22 Doveton Street. (The record also shows all three transferred from the Betts Street School.

19 Jun 1890 - Charles Allen Lechmere, Jr is admitted as a pupil at Essex Street School. The family is living at 22 Doveton Street.

7 Jun 1892 - Albert Edward Lechmere is admitted as a pupil at Essex Street School. The family is living at 22 Doveton Street.

Obviously, none of these 4 dates are moving dates.

Checking Betts Street School records, James Lechmere was admitted 31 May 1886, Louisa Lechmere 21 June 1886. The family is living at 20 James Street.

So we know that the Charles Allen Lechmere family moved to 22 Doveton Street some time between June of 1886 and June of 1888.

[Fiver]

Abberline's report of 19 September 1888 in the MEPO files. You can find it in Skinner & Evans.

Abberline states that Cross found the body at 'about 3.40' and that Paul soon came up behind him.

Abberline had been in court for Lechmere and for Paul's testimony and the report came 2 days after hearing Paul's testimony. So many accounts come from years or even decades later,

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Abberline's report of 19 September 1888 in the MEPO files. You can find it in Skinner & Evans.

Abberline states that Cross found the body at 'about 3.40' and that Paul soon came up behind him.

I read that book many years ago but do not have a copy with me.

I just found a reference to the report and coincidentally had the gratification of seeing that eight years ago, someone anticipated my finding that based on Holmgren's seven minute estimate of Lechmere's walk to Buck's Row, Lechmere had no more than three minutes to commit the murder and mutilation, and not the nine minutes claimed by Holmgren:


"I beg to report that about 3.40am 31st Ult. as Charles Cross, "carman" of 22 Doveton Street, Cambridge Road, Bethnal Green was passing through Bucks Row, Whitechapel (on his way to work) he noticed a woman lying on her back in the footway...he stopped to look at the woman when another carman (also on his way to work) named Robert Paul of 30 Foster St., Bethnal Green came up...".

(Abberline)



From Abberline's report, it can be seen that the idea that, on the evidence, there was a "major" nine minute gap is dead in the water. For such a gap to have existed, then despite the previous reliance on Cross's testimony as to the time he left his home, it would have had to have been at least six minutes earlier than he testified to. If he left at the time he said he did, and we accept the timing of 7 minutes for him to walk to Bucks Row, then he had no more than 3 minutes to murder Nichols before Paul's arrival. While this might have been physically possible, it does mean that the "9 minute gap" is a gap of fiction and, in my submission, in the light of Abberline's clear timing of events, should not be repeated.

(David Orsam)

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/witnesses/8829-inquest-reports-of-mizen-cross-evidence/page2

[rjpalmer]

Can you give some reference to Abberline's analysis?

Abberline's report of 19 September 1888 in the MEPO files. You can find it in Skinner & Evans.

Abberline states that Cross found the body at 'about 3.40' and that Paul soon came up behind him.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

https://www.completefrance.com/news/...ipper-8380810/

JM

It looks as though she is confusing notoriety with fame.

[jmenges]

https://www.completefrance.com/news/my-great-great-grandfather-may-have-been-jack-the-ripper-8380810/

JM

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I've never quite understood why the far right would prefer the Holocaust to have been a hoax. Hitler would be turning in his grave to see supposedly like-minded people denying all the effort he put in towards his Final Solution.

That aside, I'm now wondering what possible motive the Butlers think Lechmere might have had. I mean, this was a hard-working white man, breeding a small army of sweet little white Lechmeres, just doing his bit in his spare time, trying to clean the streets of the female traitors who would work in any capacity for the Jews and other 'foreigners', who would all be on the next flight to Rwanda today, if 'Leaky Sue' Braverman could make all her dreams come true.

That can't be it - can it?

Love,

Caz
X

It is quite extraordinary that Butler-Stow should have preferred to accuse Aryan Lechmere to Jewish Kosminski, which suggests he must have had some strong motive.

If it was to get at his in-laws, why would Susan go along with it?