All roads lead to Lechmere.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

No. You had a cluelessly wrong starting point and a cluelessly wrong ending point.






M.

Is that a supposition, a fact, or an insult?

[Mark J D]

... my estimate of one and a third miles looked a bit long, but it was based on distances provided by Google with a necessarily-different starting point, and of course the routes available nowadays...

No. You had a cluelessly wrong starting point and a cluelessly wrong ending point.






M.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Let me try and assist here.

It looks like Mark was using the National library of Scotland website, which provides various maps with overlays if wanted, and most useful a measuring tool.

It looks like Mark used a 20th century map, and therefore he has the entrance in Eldon street slightly out.

Here is a link to the OS map for the 1890s for that area.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.5&lat=51.51840&lon=-0.07575&layers=188&b=1

I have also attached the maps with distances from.the 1890s OS map.
The figures will never be the same, as you draw the line to be measured yourself and the maps are a little different.

You can see that the northern route, which I mistakenly referred to a Skinner street when it should be Appold street is 817 meters which is about 894 yards or about 1/2 mile.

The southern route to the known entrance in Eldon street is 798 meters or about 873 yards.

3.1 mph ( approx average ) is almost 91 yards a minutes

So the northern route would take around 9 minutes 50 seconds

The southern route would take about 9 minutes 36 seconds.

I hope that helps.

Many thanks for all that information.

I did think that my estimate of one and a third miles looked a bit long, but it was based on distances provided by Google with a necessarily-different starting point, and of course the routes available nowadays.

It reduces the time for Lechmere to have got to work by about 16 minutes, but he would still have been two hours late!

That is, IF he had gone to work that day and somehow ended up in Dorset Street.

[Elamarna]

Miller's Court was about one quarter of the way along Dorset Street from the Commercial Street end of it and does not now exist, so, when using
information about distances online, I am using distances between landmarks that exist now.

I can't remember where I got the 1 1/3 mile estimate from, but there is a distance given online between Christchurch Spitalfields and Old Broad Street as 1.4 miles.


According to https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Commerc...d-Broad-Street

Old Broad Street is a 15 minute walk from Commercial St, London E1 6BW, UK
Old Broad Street is a 14 minute walk from Commercial St, London E1 6LZ, UK

Those walking times suggest a slightly longer distance than yours - about 0.8 miles, not 0.8 km.

I can read the name of the starting point - Duval Street - which suggests an early twentieth century map.

Am I right?

Would you share with us the name of software you used to make the measurement?

Let me try and assist here.

It looks like Mark was using the National library of Scotland website, which provides various maps with overlays if wanted, and most useful a measuring tool.

It looks like Mark used a 20th century map, and therefore he has the entrance in Eldon street slightly out.

Here is a link to the OS map for the 1890s for that area.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.5&lat=51.51840&lon=-0.07575&layers=188&b=1

I have also attached the maps with distances from.the 1890s OS map.
The figures will never be the same, as you draw the line to be measured yourself and the maps are a little different.

You can see that the northern route, which I mistakenly referred to a Skinner street when it should be Appold street is 817 meters which is about 894 yards or about 1/2 mile.

The southern route to the known entrance in Eldon street is 798 meters or about 873 yards.

3.1 mph ( approx average ) is almost 91 yards a minutes

So the northern route would take around 9 minutes 50 seconds

The southern route would take about 9 minutes 36 seconds.

I hope that helps.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Very good post, I was about to post the same, but no point in duplication.
So at average walking speed of 3.1 mph he's going to get the the known entrance in Eldon street in under 10 minutes and the proposed entrance in skinner street in 9 minutes


Steve

I agree with your estimate of 10 minutes because 0.8 km is about half a mile and it seems most people take about 20 minutes to walk a mile.

That means that if the murderer left Millers Court at 5:45 AM and somehow managed to find somewhere to wash his blood stains off - say in the space of five minutes - then he would have arrived at work at 6:00 AM, a full 2 hours late.

[Fiver]

From what I've read over the years, the supposition is that Lechmere (if the killer) was a psychopath. Psychopaths are calm in fear-inducing situations and engage in risk-taking behaviour.

Thats the pop pop culture version of psychopaths.

Real psychopaths are not immune to fear.

[Mark J D]

Miller's Court was about one quarter of the way along Dorset Street from the Commercial Street end of it and does not now exist, so, when using
information about distances online, I am using distances between landmarks that exist now.

I can't remember where I got the 1 1/3 mile estimate from, but there is a distance given online between Christchurch Spitalfields and Old Broad Street as 1.4 miles.

According to https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Commerc...d-Broad-Street

Old Broad Street is a 15 minute walk from Commercial St, London E1 6BW, UK
Old Broad Street is a 14 minute walk from Commercial St, London E1 6LZ, UK

Those walking times suggest a slightly longer distance than yours - about 0.8 miles, not 0.8 km.

God Almighty...




M.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

1 1/3 miles is 2140m.

M.

Miller's Court was about one quarter of the way along Dorset Street from the Commercial Street end of it and does not now exist, so, when using
information about distances online, I am using distances between landmarks that exist now.

I can't remember where I got the 1 1/3 mile estimate from, but there is a distance given online between Christchurch Spitalfields and Old Broad Street as 1.4 miles.


According to https://www.rome2rio.com/map/Commerc...d-Broad-Street

Old Broad Street is a 15 minute walk from Commercial St, London E1 6BW, UK
Old Broad Street is a 14 minute walk from Commercial St, London E1 6LZ, UK

Those walking times suggest a slightly longer distance than yours - about 0.8 miles, not 0.8 km.

I can read the name of the starting point - Duval Street - which suggests an early twentieth century map.

Am I right?

Would you share with us the name of software you used to make the measurement?

[Elamarna]

1 1/3 miles is 2140m.



M.

Very good post, I was about to post the same, but no point in duplication.
So at average walking speed of 3.1 mph he's going to get the the known entrance in Eldon street in under 10 minutes and the proposed entrance in skinner street in 9 minutes


Steve

[Mark J D]

If he was working that day, he would have had to spend two hours of working hours mutilating Kelly and then walked 1 1/3 miles to his place of work

1 1/3 miles is 2140m.

... These arguments are so powerful...

M.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

From what I've read over the years, the supposition is that Lechmere (if the killer) was a psychopath. Psychopaths are calm in fear-inducing situations and engage in risk-taking behaviour. Lechmere engaged Paul in order to control the scene and then hoodwinked Mizen in order to slip away. Obviously this was only a trick Lechmere could pull off once, as he would be under heavy scrutiny if linked to another murder scene. Not saying that's a theory I subscribe to, but it's one that's been put out there.

'Obviously this was only a trick Lechmere could pull off once, as he would be under heavy scrutiny if linked to another murder scene.'

That is a point I have made to Christer Holmgren and others.

The murder of Mary Kelly is the one that would have completely cleared Lechmere.

If he was working that day, he would have had to spend two hours of working hours mutilating Kelly and then walked 1 1/3 miles to his place of work, arriving with bloodstains on him and Kelly's heart seeping blood through his clothes.

Arriving at work in that condition on the morning of a murder would have aroused suspicion and, since he was already known to the police, led to police questioning and discovery of his knife and Kelly's heart.

These arguments are so powerful that when I put them to Christer, he eventually fell back on the argument that Lechmere might not have gone to work that day.

He DIDN'T!

It was a public holiday.

Lechmere was in bed with his wife after tucking his nine children into bed.

He had a cast-iron alibi.

[Harry D]

The Mizen Scam being that Lechmere told Mizen that a policeman was already with the body, in order to get past Mizen?

Wouldn't it have been easier for Lechmere not to find a policeman at all, in which case there would be no need to get past one by making something up?

The most likely explanation is Mizen's memory played tricks on him, and he attributed to Lechmere knowledge of the policeman whom Mizen later found with the body being with the body.

Mizen's testimony on that point was not corroborated.

From what I've read over the years, the supposition is that Lechmere (if the killer) was a psychopath. Psychopaths are calm in fear-inducing situations and engage in risk-taking behaviour. Lechmere engaged Paul in order to control the scene and then hoodwinked Mizen in order to slip away. Obviously this was only a trick Lechmere could pull off once, as he would be under heavy scrutiny if linked to another murder scene. Not saying that's a theory I subscribe to, but it's one that's been put out there.

[Fiver]

Even if they had checked him, I am far from convinced that he would actually have any noticible blood on him, maybe his hands of cuffs, but even that's not certain.

My point being that a lack of obvious blood, does not rule him out.

Steve

There certainly would have been much less blood than the Tabram or Kelly murders, but Nichols killer probably wouldn't have known how much blood was on himself and his clothing. Plus the knife definitely would have been bloody unless it was cleaned off, in which case the rag used to clean it would have been bloody. It since this was the first murder, or at least the first with strangulation before cutting the throat, the killer wouldn't have the experience to estimate how much blood was on their hands and clothes. Darkness would have made it harder to see bloodstains, but it would have been complete folly for the killer to approach anyone until they had the chance to check themselves in good light, preferably in front of a mirror.

Robert Paul, by his own testimony, was afraid of being attacked and tried to avoid Lechmere. I'd expect that fear would make Paul a lot more alert to bloodstains on Lechmere and the two walked together for about 15 minutes.

PC Mizen would have had a light source, which would have made it much easier to see bloodstains. And someone who had never met Mizen would have no reason to expect just how unobservant he would be.

I do agree that the lack of obvious blood does not rule Lechmere out as a suspect, but the willing interactions with Paul and Mizen point to either astounding levels of stupidity or the actions of an innocent man.

[JeffHamm]

Hi Jeff,

Mizen retired with a spotless record. The scenario you lay out above is what I think actually happened, although Mizen should have at least taken names and addresses.

Best regards, George

Hi George,

While it would have been good to take names/addresses, I get the impression that Cross/Lechmere and Paul overstate how strongly they believed she was dead. I rather suspect they thought she was drunk, but something was a bit ... creepy maybe. So while I don't doubt they did at some point say "I think she's dead", I get the sense they weren't all that compelling. As such, PC Mizen is going to have seen them as just slightly excited fellows reporting a drunk in the street. While we today might think the police should go directly to assist, we can see that attitudes were very different (note, for example, how the police don't bat an eye when Eddowes says she'll get a hiding when she gets home, but rather tell her it serves her right type thing). Anyway, once Mizen gets there and realises things are not as he thought they were, then that is a situation ripe for re-evaluation of things resulting in a memory alternation. Same with Cross/Lechmere and Paul, when they find out through the news she was dead, they will remember mentioning they thought she was but tend to forget that they weren't really all that insistant (I mean, they did just head off to work after talking to PC Mizen for probably less than a minute and may even only have just paused and said "There's a drunk woman laying in Buck's Row and you're needed there" and With Paul adding "I think she could be dead". Something like that isn't going to light a fire under PC Mizen, or any other constable, because it's not coming across as an emergency.

But, for all parties involved, hindsight changes how they recall their own actions, etc.

Anyway, I hope it's clear this is just speculation on my part as I obviously don't know the above is how things went. It's just the impression I get reading between the lines. But of course, my impressions are entirely subjective.

- Jeff

[GBinOz]

Hi Steve,

I've suggested a simple memory type error before. Basically, when the carmen are saying he is need in Buck's Row, meaning there's a situation that needs dealing with, and he arrives to find PC Neil already there, who in turn needs him to go get the ambulance, it would be very easy for him to misconstrue the carmen as saying he was needed by PC Neil. So one could call that a memory error, or a miscommunication perhaps. In the end, though, the error on that point appears to be PC Mizen's, but I'm not convinced it should be viewed as him lying (though of course he could be) given I think it's probably a mistake on his part as to what Cross/Lechmere and Paul meant. Being told his presence was required in Buck's Row and finding a constable there already could easily result in him presuming the carmen knew of PC Neil's presence, resulting in his reinterpretation for the information he had just been told, which technically could be described as altering his memory.

- Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Mizen retired with a spotless record. The scenario you lay out above is what I think actually happened, although Mizen should have at least taken names and addresses.

Best regards, George