Evidence of innocence

[Harry D]

I'll second that, although I didn't understand 'Mizen Link'.

Missing (Mizen) Link, I presume?

[Doctored Whatsit]

Lechmere was seen near a freshly killed victim .

Or maybe, Lechmere discovered a woman lying in the road, was concerned for her, heard someone approaching, waited for him, and then drew his attention to her. They discussed the best course of action and decided to seek out a policeman. They found one, and advised him of what they had seen.

It's exactly the same story - it's how you tell it. It is so simple to make innocence look like guilt isn't it! Presumably I will be told that it is equally simple to make guilt look like innocence.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Or maybe, Lechmere discovered a woman lying in the road, was concerned for her, heard someone approaching, waited for him, and then drew his attention to her. They discussed the best course of action and decided to seek out a policeman. They found one, and advised him of what they had seen.

It's exactly the same story - it's how you tell it. It is so simple to make innocence look like guilt isn't it! Presumably I will be told that it is equally simple to make guilt look like innocence.

Presumably I will be told that it is equally simple to make guilt look like innocence.


You may be told that, but it wouldn't make it true.

Again and again, I've read that Lechmere was found standing over the body.

I put it to one of his accusers that Lechmere was not alone with the body for about eight minutes - as alleged by Stow and Holmgren - but about two minutes.

He said two minutes would have been enough.

I asked him to explain why Paul didn't see him with an eight-inch knife in his hand.

He couldn't reply.

It's far-fetched enough to suggest that he could have murdered the woman and mutilated her in two minutes, but wipe the knife and put it away before Paul, who they say surprised Lechmere, could notice it?

If Lechmere HAD had a knife in his hand, it wouldn't have been a simple matter to explain it away!

[caz]

Missing (Mizen) Link, I presume?

You got it, Harry.

Love,

Caz
X

[caz]

If Lechmere HAD had a knife in his hand, it wouldn't have been a simple matter to explain it away!

Especially if Robert Paul had turned out to be a copper, who, unlike Dozin' Mizen, was mindful that two local street women had been brutally and fatally attacked that year, one in April and one just over three weeks previously.

But those who favour Lechmere as the killer would naturally argue that his psychopathic personality gave him the power to say or do anything and still get away with it, and they know this because - oh look, the good old circular argument rolls round again - he did get away with it, and was never suspected, proving he was a psychopath.

All the extras in their drama were complete dimwits by comparison with the star of the show, who could have slit a female throat while singing to a packed audience: "I've Got to Get Her Onto My Knife", and they'd have given him a round of applause.

Love,

Caz
X

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Especially if Robert Paul had turned out to be a copper, who, unlike Dozin' Mizen, was mindful that two local street women had been brutally and fatally attacked that year, one in April and one just over three weeks previously.

But those who favour Lechmere as the killer would naturally argue that his psychopathic personality gave him the power to say or do anything and still get away with it, and they know this because - oh look, the good old circular argument rolls round again - he did get away with it, and was never suspected, proving he was a psychopath.

All the extras in their drama were complete dimwits by comparison with the star of the show, who could have slit a female throat while singing to a packed audience: "I've Got to Get Her Onto My Knife", and they'd have given him a round of applause.

Love,

Caz
X

I haven't mentioned it before, but I too have often thought about the use of circular arguments by people who accuse Lechmere.

I can't remember the context now, and will have a look for the text, but once when I had made to Christer Holmgren what I thought was an unanswerable point, he responded: 'Murderers are liars'!

What he said was tantamount to alleging that Lechmere's evidence could not be believed because he was the murderer.

I have often had similar responses from Stow's (sorry, Butler's) followers - and had some only yesterday.

When I present them with the improbability of Lechmere changing direction three times on his way home from his mother's house, they respond that, as he was a psychopath, I can't say what he wouldn't have done, that you can't expect a psychopath to be logical, and that if Lechmere was the murderer, then he must have been at those locations at the right time!

[Fiver]

But those who favour Lechmere as the killer would naturally argue that his psychopathic personality gave him the power to say or do anything and still get away with it, and they know this because - oh look, the good old circular argument rolls round again - he did get away with it, and was never suspected, proving he was a psychopath.

Fictional serial killers are bold risktakers and supremely clever, often engaging in battles of wits with the police. The serial killers of Silence of the Lambs or Se7en are entertaining, but they're nothing like real serial killers. In general, serial killers are a bit dim, with an average IQ of 94.7. They're generally cowardly as well, targeting victims with little or no chance to resisting. Virtually none of them write letters to the police, which is one of the reasons I think the Ripper letters were all hoaxes.

And none of them have taken the pointless risks the Charles Lechmere would have been taking if he was guilty. He deliberately called Robert Paul over. He chose not to prop the body up, even though it would have provided an innocent excuse for blood on his hands or clothing. He chose to seek out a policeman along with Robert Paul, instead of splitting up. After talking with PC Mizen, he choose to continue to walk with Paul almost as far as Spitalfields Market. He chose to come forward and testify, even though neither Mizen nor Paul knew who he was.

It's Schrodingers Suspect - Lechmere would have to simultaneously be both monumentally stupid to take all these unnecessary risks and monumentally clever to deflect all suspicion on the part of PC Mizen, Robert Paul, the Coroner and jury, Inspector Spratling, Inspector Abbeline, Inspector Helston, and Detective Sergeant Enright.

[Fiver]

When I present them with the improbability of Lechmere changing direction three times on his way home from his mother's house, they respond that, as he was a psychopath, I can't say what he wouldn't have done, that you can't expect a psychopath to be logical, and that if Lechmere was the murderer, then he must have been at those locations at the right time!

Schrodingers Suspect again - he's both logical and calculating as well as being illogical and unpredictable, depending on the needs of their narrative of guilt.

[caz]

Fictional serial killers are bold risktakers and supremely clever, often engaging in battles of wits with the police. The serial killers of Silence of the Lambs or Se7en are entertaining, but they're nothing like real serial killers. In general, serial killers are a bit dim, with an average IQ of 94.7. They're generally cowardly as well, targeting victims with little or no chance to resisting. Virtually none of them write letters to the police, which is one of the reasons I think the Ripper letters were all hoaxes.

And none of them have taken the pointless risks the Charles Lechmere would have been taking if he was guilty. He deliberately called Robert Paul over. He chose not to prop the body up, even though it would have provided an innocent excuse for blood on his hands or clothing. He chose to seek out a policeman along with Robert Paul, instead of splitting up. After talking with PC Mizen, he choose to continue to walk with Paul almost as far as Spitalfields Market. He chose to come forward and testify, even though neither Mizen nor Paul knew who he was.

It's Schrodingers Suspect - Lechmere would have to simultaneously be both monumentally stupid to take all these unnecessary risks and monumentally clever to deflect all suspicion on the part of PC Mizen, Robert Paul, the Coroner and jury, Inspector Spratling, Inspector Abbeline, Inspector Helston, and Detective Sergeant Enright.

Hi Fiver,

In addition to this, if Lechmere read Robert Paul's account in the newspaper, he'd have felt even safer, because Paul described him in the vaguest of terms and even claimed to have done the talking when they found Mizen. If Mizen read the account, he'd have assumed it was Paul who alerted him if Lechmere hadn't come forward. Only when the police tracked Paul down might it have become clear to Mizen that it was the other, unidentified man who spoke to him, but then Paul would be the one accused of lying, and they wouldn't have had Lechmere to question. A Win-win situation for Lechmere, and he'd also have been able to kill Annie Chapman without having connected himself with the murder of Polly Nichols.

Of course, we can only really judge serial killers who got caught, so those who didn't are more of a closed book. They could be smarter, or just luckier. But Lechmere is not a closed book, so we can judge the man from his known actions and make a comparison with the known facts of the murder he is accused of committing. Without his connection to Buck's Row - which would not have been made if he hadn't made it of his own volition - there is nothing to connect him with any of the murders, so that's the one to concentrate on.

If Lechmere was a serial killer, he had a most unusual ability to anticipate and tune in to the thoughts and reactions of people he had never met before, and to adapt his own behaviour accordingly, whether in the blink of an eye when deceiving just one other person, or when he had more time to think about how to conduct himself at the inquest, and how all those present might receive him. Many 'normal' people can't do that if they lack empathy and can't put themselves in anyone else's position. That can't be applied to what we know of Lechmere's social skills and voluntary interactions with a variety of strangers.

Love,

Caz
X

[Dickere]

Especially if Robert Paul had turned out to be a copper, who, unlike Dozin' Mizen, was mindful that two local street women had been brutally and fatally attacked that year, one in April and one just over three weeks previously.

But those who favour Lechmere as the killer would naturally argue that his psychopathic personality gave him the power to say or do anything and still get away with it, and they know this because - oh look, the good old circular argument rolls round again - he did get away with it, and was never suspected, proving he was a psychopath.

All the extras in their drama were complete dimwits by comparison with the star of the show, who could have slit a female throat while singing to a packed audience: "I've Got to Get Her Onto My Knife", and they'd have given him a round of applause.

Love,

Caz
X

Is Dozin' Mizen a relative of Hidin' Biden ?

Spare us the cutter, couldn't cut the mustard...

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Fictional serial killers are bold risktakers and supremely clever, often engaging in battles of wits with the police. The serial killers of Silence of the Lambs or Se7en are entertaining, but they're nothing like real serial killers. In general, serial killers are a bit dim, with an average IQ of 94.7. They're generally cowardly as well, targeting victims with little or no chance to resisting. Virtually none of them write letters to the police, which is one of the reasons I think the Ripper letters were all hoaxes.

And none of them have taken the pointless risks the Charles Lechmere would have been taking if he was guilty. He deliberately called Robert Paul over. He chose not to prop the body up, even though it would have provided an innocent excuse for blood on his hands or clothing. He chose to seek out a policeman along with Robert Paul, instead of splitting up. After talking with PC Mizen, he choose to continue to walk with Paul almost as far as Spitalfields Market. He chose to come forward and testify, even though neither Mizen nor Paul knew who he was.

It's Schrodingers Suspect - Lechmere would have to simultaneously be both monumentally stupid to take all these unnecessary risks and monumentally clever to deflect all suspicion on the part of PC Mizen, Robert Paul, the Coroner and jury, Inspector Spratling, Inspector Abbeline, Inspector Helston, and Detective Sergeant Enright.

He chose not to prop the body up, even though it would have provided an innocent excuse for blood on his hands or clothing.


I have never come across that argument before and it is a powerful one.

The explanation Christer Holmgren offered was that Lechmere was trying to avoid revealing the injuries suffered by the victim.

If that were true, why would Lechmere have called anyone's attention to the body in the first place?

The fact about this case never mentioned by Lechmere's accusers is that Paul intended to walk right past and would never have noticed the body had not Lechmere stopped him.

[Mark J D]

I put it to one of his accusers that Lechmere was not alone with the body for about eight minutes - as alleged by Stow and Holmgren - but about two minutes.

He said two minutes would have been enough.

[...]

It's far-fetched enough to suggest that he could have murdered the woman and mutilated her in two minutes

Why would two minutes not have been long enough?

M.

[Mark J D]

When I present them with the improbability of Lechmere changing direction three times on his way home from his mother's house...

What's improbable about it?

M.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

What's improbable about it?

M.

Everything.

Wouldn't you say that it's improbable that someone would go in the wrong direction on his way home three times and after about two hours still be about two miles from home?

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Why would two minutes not have been long enough?

M.

Two minutes to negotiate with the victim, murder her, mutilate her, wipe his knife, and put it away, and step back from the body, before Paul could notice?

Between the murderer's meeting Catherine Eddowes and her body being found, the time difference was almost certainly more than 10 minutes, with Pc Watkins visiting the Square every 12-14 minutes.

But Lechmere is expected to have done everything in about two minutes.