Evidence of innocence

[Mark J D]

The majority of his working day would be spent out and about around Whitechapel and Spitalfields.

Here and there, Gary Barnett has made the point that a carman from Broad Street would have delivered across a large area of London, not just Whitechapel and Spitalfields. But your point is basically sound, I'm sure.

M.

[rjpalmer]

The majority of his working day would be spent out and about around Whitechapel and Spitalfields, not at his place of work.

Why do you think he would have been driving around Whitechapel and Spitalfields?

Didn't the 1876 traffic accident happen near Copenhagen Street, Islington?

[Great Aunt]

Why do you think he would have been driving around Whitechapel and Spitalfields?

Didn't the 1876 traffic accident happen near Copenhagen Street, Islington?

Apologies - my knowledge of the capital isn't that great.

[Mark J D]

Apologies - my knowledge of the capital isn't that great.

-- It's also worth remembering that we don't actually know *for certain* that the 'Charles Cross' in the 1876 traffic accident was Lechmere.

Don't let yourself be bullied, Auntie.

M.

[Great Aunt]

I openly admitted a little while ago that my knowledge about JtR generally is inferior to most people's on here - but that doesn't mean I can't have an opinion - at least I don't believe it was a condition when I joined the forum. Thank you M.

[harry]

How much time,Great Aunt,do you believe would have been spent at Pickfords,and how much time on the rounds.Plus how much information of Cross could have been obtained from Picckfords.Now I to am not too conversant with delivery drivers,though I had an uncle who was one(delivered coal by horse and cart),but time spent on the round,was about equal to time spent at the work's premises.They just didn't jump on a fully laden cart with horse harnessed,at start of work,or jump off at the end of shift,and go home leaving the horse to someone else.Police,well I expect they would conduct routine enquiries more likely between 9-5 in daylight hours,than 9-5at night.

[Dickere]

Why do you think he would have been driving around Whitechapel and Spitalfields?

Didn't the 1876 traffic accident happen near Copenhagen Street, Islington?

More likely to run someone over if you're unfamiliar with the area perhaps.

Or maybe, he had different routes over the years.

[Darryl Kenyon]

How much time,Great Aunt,do you believe would have been spent at Pickfords,and how much time on the rounds.Plus how much information of Cross could have been obtained from Picckfords.Now I to am not too conversant with delivery drivers,though I had an uncle who was one(delivered coal by horse and cart),but time spent on the round,was about equal to time spent at the work's premises.They just didn't jump on a fully laden cart with horse harnessed,at start of work,or jump off at the end of shift,and go home leaving the horse to someone else.Police,well I expect they would conduct routine enquiries more likely between 9-5 in daylight hours,than 9-5at night.

Indeed Harry, when I first started at Royal mail when everything was virtually hand sorted , you spent at least as much time in the depot as out. Sorting your mail, your packets, your special delivery items, putting everything in order, working your route out etc etc before you started delivering . Then go back to the depot , break, before you did it again for the second post .
I would assume much the same would apply to Lech with his deliveries .
Regards Darryl

[Harry D]

Don't let yourself be bullied, Auntie.

You really need to drop the persecution complex. It's not attractive in the least.

[Kattrup]

Pickford carrier forms from 1891, reproduced in Lessons in Commerce, 1895:

[Great Aunt]

How much time,Great Aunt,do you believe would have been spent at Pickfords,and how much time on the rounds.Plus how much information of Cross could have been obtained from Picckfords.Now I to am not too conversant with delivery drivers,though I had an uncle who was one(delivered coal by horse and cart),but time spent on the round,was about equal to time spent at the work's premises.They just didn't jump on a fully laden cart with horse harnessed,at start of work,or jump off at the end of shift,and go home leaving the horse to someone else.Police,well I expect they would conduct routine enquiries more likely between 9-5 in daylight hours,than 9-5at night.

As the name Carman suggests, I would have thought he spent more time delivering goods than working at his base but then I too am not very conversant with that job and its responsibilities. I didn't imply that Pickfords would have any information to pass on to the police but rather they could have left a message there for him to contact them. I agree about the police making routine enquires during daylight hours - did I suggest anything otherwise?

[The Baron]

Another stab in the heart of this misguided theory!

Lechmerians claim that Charles Cross concealed his true name "Lechmere" and suggested Cross may not be the name he was known as at work.

But Cross stood at the inquests and before the coroners and the jurys and the police officers and all kind of journalists two times, and in those two times he gave the name "Cross"

Was there no one at all there in those two occasions who knows this man?!

I challenge every lechmerian to prove to me here and now that there was no one at all present in those two occasions who knew Cross true identity and his "Lechmere" name.



The Baron

[rjpalmer]

The National Archives have holdings for a group called "The Amalgamated Carmen and Conveyance Association," that operated in the early 1870s, but was disbanded sometime around 1874 or 1875. It's probably wildly unlikely that it contains any membership lists, but if it did, and CAL was a member, it could shed light on his 'work' name. RP

[Fisherman]

Another stab in the heart of this misguided theory!

Lechmerians claim that Charles Cross concealed his true name "Lechmere" and suggested Cross may not be the name he was known as at work.

But Cross stood at the inquests and before the coroners and the jurys and the police officers and all kind of journalists two times, and in those two times he gave the name "Cross"

Was there no one at all there in those two occasions who knows this man?!

I challenge every lechmerian to prove to me here and now that there was no one at all present in those two occasions who knew Cross true identity and his "Lechmere" name.



The Baron

How fun! Then I challenge you back, to prove that there WAS somebody at either of the inquests who knew about Charles Lechmere and which name he employed! Maybe for all the witnesses, there was somebody who was aware of their personal affairs? Wouldnīt that be great?

Oh, and before you cork up the champagne to celebrate having stabbed the heart of the theory, you may need to know that it does not really matter if he DID call himself Cross at work - he remains the likely killer anyway.

Then again, champagne is not all that good, is it? It cannot beat a nice bottle of Amarone, can it?

[Fisherman]

The National Archives have holdings for a group called "The Amalgamated Carmen and Conveyance Association," that operated in the early 1870s, but was disbanded sometime around 1874 or 1875. It's probably wildly unlikely that it contains any membership lists, but if it did, and CAL was a member, it could shed light on his 'work' name. RP

I donīt think that would be wildly unlikely that there were membership lists, R J - there likely were, if you ask me. Whether or not they have survived is another matter, but if they have, I think there is a fair chance that Lechmere could have participated. I think he liked all sorts of orderly matters, in more or less the same way that a guy like Dennis rader did.

Go for it!