Evidence of innocence

[Fiver]

Pickfords carried raw meat as well as cooked horse flesh. They didn’t have to be a slaughterhouse to transport raw meat.

Raw, bleeding, unpackaged red meat? We're still waiting for you to provide evidence of that.

My focus on horse meat arises from the fact that generations of Lechmeres were connected to that commodity, so it seems as good an example as any to demonstrate the flaws in your ‘alibi’ claims. But if you want to talk fruit and veg and have Lechmere’s cart being loaded/unloaded directly across the road from Hanbury Street, be my guest.

Your obsession with horse meat is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with whether CAL was the Ripper. It has nothing to do with whether CAL had an alibi for the Chapman murder. Even working for Harrison-Barber would have not explained showing up at work spattered in fresh blood.

And Pickfords was not a slaughterhouse, they were a general goods carrier.

Also, the Broad Street Station was not "directly across the road from Hanbury Street". It was a few blocks away from the Spitalfields Market and the fruit and veg weren't going to carry themselves. Broad Street Station was also only a few blocks from a Cocoa Manufactory, a Chenilles Manufactory, a Boot and Shoe factory, a Tobacco Manufactory, a Smithy, the Black Eagle Brewery, the Lion Saw Mills, the Crescent Foundry, a Dye Works, another Brewery, a Van and Cart Works, a Brass Foundry, a Chemical Works, and a Chocolate and Mustard Mill.

But you've mentioned horse meat more than all of those combined.

[Fiver]

Have I made any claims?

You're mainly about speculation and implication, but you have made plenty of claims.

"The potential for him to have had the few spare minutes it might have taken to locate and murder Chapman is enormous." - Post #2689

"There is no definition of suspect laid down in law." - Post #2695

"The name Lechmere wasn’t known." - Post #2699

"I believe the police investigated anyone against whom there was some suspicion but not necessarily those who on the face of it were simply witnesses." - Post #2706

And so on.

[MrBarnett]

Raw, bleeding, unpackaged red meat? We're still waiting for you to provide evidence of that.



Your obsession with horse meat is irrelevant. It has nothing to do with whether CAL was the Ripper. It has nothing to do with whether CAL had an alibi for the Chapman murder. Even working for Harrison-Barber would have not explained showing up at work spattered in fresh blood.

And Pickfords was not a slaughterhouse, they were a general goods carrier.

Also, the Broad Street Station was not "directly across the road from Hanbury Street". It was a few blocks away from the Spitalfields Market and the fruit and veg weren't going to carry themselves. Broad Street Station was also only a few blocks from a Cocoa Manufactory, a Chenilles Manufactory, a Boot and Shoe factory, a Tobacco Manufactory, a Smithy, the Black Eagle Brewery, the Lion Saw Mills, the Crescent Foundry, a Dye Works, another Brewery, a Van and Cart Works, a Brass Foundry, a Chemical Works, and a Chocolate and Mustard Mill.

But you've mentioned horse meat more than all of those combined.

Yes, I mentioned the commodity we know the family were involved with.

The fruit and veg reference was to Spitalfields market, which was across the road from Hanbury Street.

When did I say Pickfords handled bloody or unpacked meat? I said raw. And if you really need evidence that Smithfield market dealt primarily in raw meat, then you need to do a bit more Googling.

[Fiver]

Who knows, between us (the community) we may be able to elevate Pinchin Street to a near knock-out blow. That’s how I would view it if we could prove that the Lechmere family had a lock-up cat’s meat shop less than a minute’s walk from the Pinchin Street arch.

You have a very odd definition of a "near knock-out blow".

If we could that the Lechmere family had a lock-up cat's meat shop less than a minute's walk from the Pinchin Street arch all that would prove is that the Lechmere family had a lock-up cat's meat shop less than a minute's walk from the Pinchin Street arch.

To start with, there were two vendor sheds. If the Lechmere family owned one in 1889, that proves nothing about who owned the other one. It would not prove that either "lock-up cat's meat shop" had anything to do with the Pinchin Street Torso. It would not prove that any member of the Lechemre family had anything to do with the Torso Killings. It would not prove that any member of the Lechemre family had anything to do with the Ripper Killings. It would not prove the torso killer was the Ripper.

[Fiver]

More evidence of horse meat at Broad Street, from The Daily News of 4th July, 1876:

No one has claimed that Pickfords never carried cats meat. Congratulations on refuting a position no one took. Again.

[MrBarnett]

No one has claimed that Pickfords never carried cats meat. Congratulations on refuting a position no one took. Again.

And where in my post do I claim that they did?

Congrats back at ya!

[MrBarnett]

You have a very odd definition of a "near knock-out blow".

If we could that the Lechmere family had a lock-up cat's meat shop less than a minute's walk from the Pinchin Street arch all that would prove is that the Lechmere family had a lock-up cat's meat shop less than a minute's walk from the Pinchin Street arch.

To start with, there were two vendor sheds. If the Lechmere family owned one in 1889, that proves nothing about who owned the other one. It would not prove that either "lock-up cat's meat shop" had anything to do with the Pinchin Street Torso. It would not prove that any member of the Lechemre family had anything to do with the Torso Killings. It would not prove that any member of the Lechemre family had anything to do with the Ripper Killings. It would not prove the torso killer was the Ripper.

You imagine the two shops were occupied by rival businessmen? Extremely unlikely I would have thought.

[Fiver]

The anti-Lechmerians are desperate to keep CAL away from meat at all costs and would prefer it if he had carried cauliflowers to/from Spitalfields market.

You completely misrepresent the position of those who disagree with you. Again.

We just don't share your obsession with horse meat.

Paul said he was a carman/carter for Covent Garden Market which was a fruit and vegetable market to the west of the City. Bearing in mind that Corbetts Court was just across Commercial Street from Spitalfields market, which also handled fruit and veg, it seems likely that Paul’s work involved travelling between the two markets.

You are making a series of assumptions, starting with where Paul was a carman.

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market." - Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, 2 September, 1888."

"Robert Baul, 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel, carman, said as he was going to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road." - The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 18 September, 1888."

The two accounts differ about where Paul worked. You're trying to combine the two while not taking the second a face value. Cobbett's Cort is near Spitalfields Market. It is not Spitalfields Market. Paul could have said Spitalfields Market if he meant it. And there was a Tobacco Manufactory at Hanbury and Corbett's Court. People normally deliver produce from where it was grown to a market or from a market to a home or restaurant, not between markets. And if they did, they could have used a goods train.

You've laid into other people for making far fewer assumptions than you do here.

[MrBarnett]

You completely misrepresent the position of those who disagree with you. Again.

We just don't share your obsession with horse meat.



You are making a series of assumptions, starting with where Paul was a carman.

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market." - Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, 2 September, 1888."

"Robert Baul, 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel, carman, said as he was going to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road." - The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 18 September, 1888."

The two accounts differ about where Paul worked. You're trying to combine the two while not taking the second a face value. Cobbett's Cort is near Spitalfields Market. It is not Spitalfields Market. Paul could have said Spitalfields Market if he meant it. And there was a Tobacco Manufactory at Hanbury and Corbett's Court. People normally deliver produce from where it was grown to a market or from a market to a home or restaurant, not between markets. And if they did, they could have used a goods train.

You've laid into other people for making far fewer assumptions than you do here.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Spitalfields and Covent Garden Markets both dealt in fruit and veg, so a firm of carters based in Spitalfields might have dealings with both markets.

[MrBarnett]

You completely misrepresent the position of those who disagree with you. Again.

We just don't share your obsession with horse meat.



You are making a series of assumptions, starting with where Paul was a carman.

"It was exactly a quarter to four when I passed up Buck's-row to my work as a carman for Covent-garden market." - Lloyd's Weekly Newspaper, Sunday, 2 September, 1888."

"Robert Baul, 30, Forster-street, Whitechapel, carman, said as he was going to work at Cobbett's-court, Spitalfields, he saw in Buck's-row a man standing in the middle of the road." - The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, 18 September, 1888."

The two accounts differ about where Paul worked. You're trying to combine the two while not taking the second a face value. Cobbett's Cort is near Spitalfields Market. It is not Spitalfields Market. Paul could have said Spitalfields Market if he meant it. And there was a Tobacco Manufactory at Hanbury and Corbett's Court. People normally deliver produce from where it was grown to a market or from a market to a home or restaurant, not between markets. And if they did, they could have used a goods train.

You've laid into other people for making far fewer assumptions than you do here.

The LNWR had agents at Spitalfields, Covent Garden and Borough markets who fulfilled orders from provincial markets.

[Great Aunt]

Is it unreasonable to suggest that carmen finished work a little earlier on Saturdays for the weekend? It's very common these days for companies to finish early on high days and holidays and even weekends. 'Crossmere' would then have had opportunity for a few hours' shut eye followed by a strong coffee and be ready for an evening out. Just a thought ....

[Fiver]

Cats meat came into Broad Street.

Pickfords handled cats meat.

The Lechmere family dealt in cats meat from at least 1891.

The nearest cats meat wholesalers to Broad Street could have been reached by travelling through Hanbury Street.

But let’s talk cabbages and Cox’s Orange Pippins. It’s far safer because it leads nowhere.

Your obsessive cats meat posts are the posts that lead nowhere. All they show is that you are obsessive about cats meat.

Cats meat came into Broad Street. No one has contested that. It is not evidence that anyone was the Ripper. It is not evidence that anyone was the Torso Killer. It is an irrelevant fact that leads nowhere.

Pickfords handled cats meat. No one has contested that. It is not evidence that anyone was the Ripper. It is not evidence that anyone was the Torso Killer. It is an irrelevant fact that leads nowhere.

Some members of Lechmere family dealt in cats meat from at least 1891. No one has contested that. It is not evidence that anyone was the Ripper. It is not evidence that anyone was the Torso Killer. It is an irrelevant fact that leads nowhere.

The nearest cats meat wholesalers to Broad Street could have been reached by traveling through Hanbury Street. No one has contested that. It is not evidence that anyone was the Ripper. It is not evidence that anyone was the Torso Killer. It is an irrelevant fact that leads nowhere.

Your bizarre obsession with cats meat distorts the facts though the lens of your obsession.

To travel the mile from the Broad Street Station to the Harrison Barber slaughterhouse on Winthrop Street, a carman would pass:

* The produce market of Spitalfields.
* And Eagle Bacon Stoves,
* And a Cocoa Manufactory.
* And a Chenilles Manufactory.
* And a Boot and Shoe factory.
* And a Tobacco Manufactory.
* And a Smithy.
* And the Black Eagle Brewery.
* And the Lion Saw Mills.
* And the Crescent Foundry.
* And a Dye Works.
* And another Brewery.
* And a Van and Cart Works.
* And a Brass Foundry.
* And a Chemical Works.
* And a Chocolate and Mustard Mill.
* And an Iron Foundry.

And just a few blocks past the slaughterhouse:

* Another Saw Mill.
* And the Animal Charcoal Works.
* And the Albion Brewery.
* And another Chemical Works.
* And a Pickle Works.

But from the way you talk, you'd think Pickfords carried nothing but cats meat and only delivered or picked up from the Harrison Barber slaughterhouse on Winthrop Street.

[Fiver]

I actually think I have assessed and evaluated the evidence in an unbiased manner, Trevor.

And there is the the key. You may believe that, but you have not assessed and evaluated the evidence in an unbiased manner. You have started by assuming guilt and interpreted everything through that lens.

believe that the real problem is that you are completely unable to realize that. And so you make endless and pointless generalistic posts, basically saying "You are dumb".

That really does not amount to much of an argument, does it?

This sounds more like the arguments of you and your supporters rather than anything Trevor has said on this thread.

[JeffHamm]

The two are not mutually exclusive. Spitalfields and Covent Garden Markets both dealt in fruit and veg, so a firm of carters based in Spitalfields might have dealings with both markets.

And you can prove they did, or is this just your assumption about what the standard procedure would be?

- Jeff

[GUT]

Is it unreasonable to suggest that carmen finished work a little earlier on Saturdays for the weekend? It's very common these days for companies to finish early on high days and holidays and even weekends. 'Crossmere' would then have had opportunity for a few hours' shut eye followed by a strong coffee and be ready for an evening out. Just a thought ....

I know my family of that vintage worked full hours each day no matter if following day was a holiday, or weekend etc. many weddings would be Sunday because Saturday was a work day, even in the 1960s and 70s my family would pay extra for funerals to be Saturday arvo so people didn’t need to miss work.

Not sure about in 1880s but today most delivery companies want all deliveries done before knock off at the end of the week, their customers want their goods and the companies want a clean slate to start the new week.