Evidence of innocence

[MrBarnett]

The house where the family were living when the 1861 census was taken was still there in 1889. I think Ed was confused by the renumbering of the street.

This was the enumeration district in which the family were living:

‘All that part of the parish of St. George in the East which comprises the East side of Philip Street South side of Ellen Street from Philip Street to Elizabeth Street including Ellen Place West side of Elizabeth Street North Side of Thomas Street from Elizabeth Street to Philip Street both sides of Severne Street both sides of Mary Ann Street.’

This is the area in question. It was east of Splidts Street and was not affected by the railway construction.

[MrBarnett]

This, from 1914/15, is probably a better map to look at. When they married in 1916, my grandmother was living at 19, Pinchin Street and my grandfather was at 26, Mary Ann Street.

[rjpalmer]

So, with so many arms removed from so many of the other torsos, you don't think the arms being left on here is evidence of a sudden need to get the unfinished project shifted out of the chop-shop double-quick...?

M.

Sudden? Not necessarily. According to Dr. Hebbert, the victim must have died at least 24 hours before the body was left under the arch; Monro wrote it was 36 hours or more, and Clark 48 hours or more, so I don't think time was of the essence. It's odd, isn't? The fact that the body was not cut up into smaller pieces might suggest someone who didn't need to smuggle the victim out of a crowded house. If you recall, Sergeant Thick also questioned people in the area who had access to wheel barrows or rented wheel barrows, but apparently came up empty.

I am not going to pollute Fish's thread with any more talk of Alfred Crow, but, in case you're wondering, this map shows the location of Ellen Court--the yellow stripe at the top. The Crows lived at No. 3 with an old mangle woman from County Cork. Maybe that gives Yabs an Irish connection, though there is nothing to suggest she was a relative, at least not that I'm seeing.

Happy Hunting.

[MrBarnett]

Sudden? Not necessarily. According to Dr. Hebbert, the victim must have died at least 24 hours before the body was left under the arch; Monro wrote it was 36 hours or more, and Clark 48 hours or more, so I don't think time was of the essence. It's odd, isn't? The fact that the body was not cut up into smaller pieces might suggest someone who didn't need to smuggle the victim out of a crowded house. If you recall, Sergeant Thick also questioned people in the area who had access to wheel barrows or rented wheel barrows, but apparently came up empty.

I am not going to pollute Fish's thread with any more talk of Alfred Crow, but, in case you're wondering, this map shows the location of Ellen Court--the yellow stripe at the top. The Crows lived at No. 3 with an old mangle woman from County Cork. Maybe that gives Yabs an Irish connection, though there is nothing to suggest she was a relative, at least not that I'm seeing.

Happy Hunting.

A very helpful map, RJ. I think that in 1861 the family were living at the house numbered 11 Oinchin Street on the Goad. And in 1881, Maria and Joe Forsdike were living in the house numbered 23 PS on the Goad. You’ll notice that no. 23 sat opposite the remnant of Frederick Street, probably the most Tigrish of the Tiger Bay streets when CAL was an adolescent living a few yards away. That was where the John Cleary graffiti was found in 1889.

[jerryd]

I have a memory of someone (probably Edward Stow) pointing out that the location of that specific arch was between the sites of two former Lechmere residences that had to be demolished to make space for it.

If this is correct information correctly remembered, then Lechmere found one hell of a spot...

M.

Hi Mark.

The spot on which the Pinchin torso was found was adjacent to a stone yard owned by the Board of Works. If we look at the torso series as a whole, many of the body parts found were on/near Board of Works owned property. I, personally, find this of great interest.

[Doctored Whatsit]

Hi Mark.

The spot on which the Pinchin torso was found was adjacent to a stone yard owned by the Board of Works. If we look at the torso series as a whole, many of the body parts found were on/near Board of Works owned property. I, personally, find this of great interest.

That is indeed very interesting - can you develop this point for us please?

[Mark J D]

Sudden? Not necessarily. According to Dr. Hebbert, the victim must have died at least 24 hours before the body was left under the arch; Monro wrote it was 36 hours or more, and Clark 48 hours or more, so I don't think time was of the essence. It's odd, isn't? The fact that the body was not cut up into smaller pieces might suggest someone who didn't need to smuggle the victim out of a crowded house. If you recall, Sergeant Thick also questioned people in the area who had access to wheel barrows or rented wheel barrows, but apparently came up empty.

Replies like this genuinely baffle me, mate. I used the simplest possible words to suggest an imaginary scenario where the killer is only 3/5 of the way through a dismemberment when there's a sudden and unexpected need to get the body shifted; you reply with a disagreement that focuses on the victim having been dead for a day or more. What is so difficult about "Shlt! She said she wouldn't be back until Friday, and I was saving the arms for tomorrow evening. Still, I can probably get it out and dump it tonight, even though the handcart isn't here"...?

Bests,

M.

[Mark J D]

[QUOTE=MrBarnett;n767283]

If you suspect the combined torso/Ripper series extended from 1873 to 1889, that almost exactly matches the period of Maria’s marriage to Joseph Forsdike. They married in 1872 and he died in 1889.

Gary

Somewhere or other, I've seen Christer put his own first clear JtR killing in 1872.

From what I've seen here and there, Lechmere also seems to have moved all the way up and out to Doveton Street in the middle of 1888 -- shifting his entire walk to Broad Street up north of Whitechapel Road and into the Christ Church/Spitalfields area -- less than two months before the murder of Tabram. How many coincidences is he allowed, again...?

M.

[Mark J D]

The spot on which the Pinchin torso was found was adjacent to a stone yard owned by the Board of Works. If we look at the torso series as a whole, many of the body parts found were on/near Board of Works owned property. I, personally, find this of great interest.

Hi Jerry!

I've seen your BoW discussion: it's astounding -- and very thought-provoking!

You really have a gift for digging up data!

Bests,

M.

[MrBarnett]

[QUOTE=Mark J D;n767360]

Somewhere or other, I've seen Christer put his own first clear JtR killing in 1872.

From what I've seen here and there, Lechmere also seems to have moved all the way up and out to Doveton Street in the middle of 1888 -- shifting his entire walk to Broad Street up north of Whitechapel Road and into the Christ Church/Spitalfields area -- less than two months before the murder of Tabram. How many coincidences is he allowed, again...?

M.

Presumably you are referring to the murder of Harriet Buswell in Great Coram Street in December, 1872.

Three of Lechmere’s kids changed school from one near James Street to one near Doveton Street on 12th June, 1888, so, as you say, that’s probably when his work route changed and took him through Spitalfields. Less than a month later Tabram was killed.

[Mark J D]

The house where the family were living when the 1861 census was taken was still there in 1889. I think Ed was confused by the renumbering of the street.

This was the enumeration district in which the family were living:

‘All that part of the parish of St. George in the East which comprises the East side of Philip Street South side of Ellen Street from Philip Street to Elizabeth Street including Ellen Place West side of Elizabeth Street North Side of Thomas Street from Elizabeth Street to Philip Street both sides of Severne Street both sides of Mary Ann Street.’

Thanks for all this stuff, Gary. I'll have to come back to this when I have more leisure: I've previously spent ages in my proper role trying to trace houses musicians lived in a hundred years ago, so I know what a nightmare it all is. (One seeming change of address turned out to be the unused plots getting wider houses built across them, and the others re-numbered to fit. Then I drove up there out of straightforward suspicion and knocked on some doors -- to find an elderly lady with old deeds to hand that showed all the numbers having been different anyway...)

M.

[Mark J D]

[QUOTE=MrBarnett;n767366]

Presumably you are referring to the murder of Harriet Buswell in Great Coram Street in December, 1872.

I don't remember him saying on that occasion which it was; I really mustn't put victims' names in his mouth, especially since my memory may be at fault.

Three of Lechmere’s kids changed school from one near James Street to one near Doveton Street on 12th June, 1888, so, as you say, that’s probably when his work route changed and took him through Spitalfields. Less than a month later Tabram was killed.

You have so much data to hand! Very impressive!

Thanks for all this!

Bests,

M.

P.S. I can't resist asking...

Since we all know there's a 'school of thought' according to which 'LechmerewasknownasCrossatPickfordsanitwasallperfe ctlyabove-boardsostoptryingtomakesomethingofitbecausehewasju stamanwhodiscoveredabodyokay!', do you know what would have been Pickfords' role in calculating and settling his taxation liability? Would an employee who liked to be called 'Cross' at work have been able to use that name with the contemporary equivalent of Payroll and HMRC when he was legally 'Lechmere'? It's all very well for some nobody on the street to go by an alias without anyone knowing or caring; but what happens in late-Victorian England when we're talking about a major company that has legal responsibilities and has to produce and process paperwork about a guy who's known by one name down on the shop floor, and by another name at every level of local and state administration...? If anyone knows the answer, surely you do!

[jerryd]

That is indeed very interesting - can you develop this point for us please?

As to not stray from this discussion Doctored Whatsit, you can read a summary of the Board of Works stuff here. Board of Works and Ripper/Torso Sites (Compiled info) - Casebook: Jack the Ripper Forums

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry!

I've seen your BoW discussion: it's astounding -- and very thought-provoking!

You really have a gift for digging up data!

Bests,

M.

Thank you very much, Mark. The BoW is only one avenue of research for the torso crimes. There are many others that make some sense to me also.

[Mark J D]

Thank you very much, Mark. The BoW is only one avenue of research for the torso crimes. There are many others that make some sense to me also.

Well, don't keep them all to yourself, man! :-)

After all, the infrastructural side of things surely presents compelling possibilities. One of the things that recommends Lechmere to me is that, rather than being some kind of circumabulant psychotic who jumps out from anywhere, he is a 'sane' man whose journeys begin and end in meaningful places. And a torso killer is even more reliant upon safe spaces...

M.