Evidence of innocence

[Abby Normal]

These are not good faith postings. Your time's up. Goodbye.

M.

exactly Mark
as you pointed out in your previous post the police concluded that the pinchin torso was carried there as there was no witness evidence about carts, No cart wheel marks etc, so the perp must have carried it there, and of course couldnt have been too far.
the rest of the torsos may or may not have been carried by cart, but i suspect they probably were.

[Abby Normal]

The police never publicly confirmed or denied Lechmere's alibis.

Gregory (Scotland Yard detective): “Is there any other point to which you would wish to draw my attention?”

Holmes: “To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time.”

Gregory: “The dog did nothing in the night-time.”

Holmes: “That was the curious incident.”

Like the dog in the night, the police silence about Lechmere as a suspect shows that they did not disprove Lechmere's alibi for the Chapman killing. If they had, he would have been prominent on their suspect lists.

The silence leads to a couple logical possibilities.

1) The police never bothered to investigate Lechmere's alibi for the Chapman killing.

2) The police investigated and confirmed Lechmere's alibi for the Chapman killing.

We can't know which of those possibilities was true, but if the police were at all competent, they would have investigated Lechmere's alibi for Chapman's killing.

in other words theres zero evidence the police alibied lech nor investigated him.

Im done with your semantic rabbit holes and phantom this and that nonsense, Im done with you too. good riddance

[Fiver]

exactly Mark
as you pointed out in your previous post the police concluded that the pinchin torso was carried there as there was no witness evidence about carts, No cart wheel marks etc, so the perp must have carried it there, and of course couldnt have been too far.
the rest of the torsos may or may not have been carried by cart, but i suspect they probably were.

I am well aware there was no evidence of a cart near the Pinchin Street Torso. But that wasn't the only remains deposited by the Torso Killer. Clearly the killer had access to some sort of a vehicle, since they left remains along a 20 mile stretch of the Thames.

We cannot assume that the Pinchon Street Torso was transfered the entire distance by hand. If it was, it was probably the only time the Torso Killer did this. It is far more likely that, like all the other cases, the Pinchin Street Torso was transported most of the distance by vehicle and then hand carried the last few blocks.

There is no reason to assume the killer lived near Pinchin Street and it would have been extremely stupid of the killer to leave the body that close.

[Fisherman]

… we do know that the police did door to door searches after the double event and questioned around 300 men with 80 being further questioned.

Regards Darryl

And we equally know that the police only bothered to speak to a selected few of the Bucks Row inhabitants, which was why a frustrated coroner reprimanded them and told them to do their job properly. As the case grew and caught the interest of politicians, press and public, it became harder to be lazy. But when Lechmere took the stand in the Working Lads, the police had very little to pride themselves of.

Keeping track of this development is crucial.

[Fisherman]

Phantom rippers! Phantom Alibis! and now phantom investigations? where does it end? lol

One wonders. Combining the zeal of the police with the many alibis of the carman , my case is quickly slipping away!

[MrBarnett]

I am well aware there was no evidence of a cart near the Pinchin Street Torso. But that wasn't the only remains deposited by the Torso Killer. Clearly the killer had access to some sort of a vehicle, since they left remains along a 20 mile stretch of the Thames.

We cannot assume that the Pinchon Street Torso was transfered the entire distance by hand. If it was, it was probably the only time the Torso Killer did this. It is far more likely that, like all the other cases, the Pinchin Street Torso was transported most of the distance by vehicle and then hand carried the last few blocks.

There is no reason to assume the killer lived near Pinchin Street and it would have been extremely stupid of the killer to leave the body that close.

Where is the evidence that the remains were left along a twenty mile stretch of the Thames. This is an exciting new development.

[rjpalmer]

Another detail that I've not seen equalled in the Crow hostile mock-up comparison case is that Lechmere's mum also lived at an address that was not all that far from the Pinchin Street arch; the significance of this comes from that old official statement that whoever dumped the 1889 torso couldn't have carried it all that far... (Ellen Street is literally twice the distance! Heh!)

The two streets are next to each other, so the difference is negligible. That said, Lechmere's connections in the district are certainly stronger than Crow's. Let's forget about him. Let him fly south for the winter. (I don't know if very many crows fly south, but this one does).

Alas, I am one of those misguided souls who doesn't believe the Pinchin Street case is related to the street murders of 1888. I suspect the motive, the method, and, especially the psychology, are entirely different.

But let's say I'm wrong. Fisherman certainly thinks I am. Out of curiosity, how do you envision Lechmere's involvement in the Pinchin Street case?

Do you see him abducting a woman and keeping her for a day or two at his mother's house, or in the out building? Then cutting her up without Ma Lechmere knowing about it, and lugging the torso through one of the most densely populated districts in the entire UK?

How was he able to do this without raising her suspicions, or do you share the belief that his mother was a strong-willed woman who taught her son to hate prostitutes, and thus maybe she even helped murder the victim and dispose of the body and hide the crime? This woman who was married for several years to a police constable?

I mean, does his mother living in the same general district--one of the most populated in London--really strengthen the case against him? I can see how someone might believe this is true of the Liz Stride case, but Pinchin Street? How does that one work, exactly?

One contemporary theory is that the Pinchin Street victim was murdered in some remote area and then deliberately dumped in the East End, the perpetrator or perpetrators hoping the credulous police would consider it as just another one of the Whitechapel Murders. If so, it didn't work. The police were highly skeptical, as am I.

[MrBarnett]

The two streets are next to each other, so the difference is negligible. That said, Lechmere's connections in the district are certainly stronger than Crow's. Let's forget about him. Let him fly south for the winter. (I don't know if very many crows fly south, but this one does).

Alas, I am one of those misguided souls who doesn't believe the Pinchin Street case is related to the street murders of 1888. I suspect the motive, the method, and, especially the psychology, are entirely different.

But let's say I'm wrong. Fisherman certainly thinks I am. Out of curiosity, how do you envision Lechmere's involvement in the Pinchin Street case?

Do you see him abducting a woman and keeping her for a day or two at his mother's house, or in the out building? Then cutting her up without Ma Lechmere knowing about it, and lugging the torso through one of the most densely populated districts in the entire UK?

How was he able to do this without raising her suspicions, or do you share the belief that his mother was a strong-willed woman who taught her son to hate prostitutes, and thus maybe she even helped murder the victim and dispose of the body and hide the crime? This woman who was married for several years to a police constable?

I mean, does his mother living in the same general district--one of the most populated in London--really strengthen the case against him? I can see how someone might believe this is true of the Liz Stride case, but Pinchin Street? How does that one work, exactly?

One contemporary theory is that the Pinchin Street victim was murdered in some remote area and then deliberately dumped in the East End, the perpetrator or perpetrators hoping the credulous police would consider it as just another one of the Whitechapel Murders. If so, it didn't work. The police were highly skeptical, as am I.

Hi RJ,

Maria was living in Cable Street in 1889, wasn’t she? A few months later she had moved to the Highway and was selling horseflesh. I wonder when she first got into that business? I believe there was a cats meat shop near the Backchurch Lane/Cable Street corner in September, 1889. That would have been a very convenient spot to have stored/dismembered the Pinchin Street body.

Gary

[Abby Normal]

The two streets are next to each other, so the difference is negligible. That said, Lechmere's connections in the district are certainly stronger than Crow's. Let's forget about him. Let him fly south for the winter. (I don't know if very many crows fly south, but this one does).

Alas, I am one of those misguided souls who doesn't believe the Pinchin Street case is related to the street murders of 1888. I suspect the motive, the method, and, especially the psychology, are entirely different.

But let's say I'm wrong. Fisherman certainly thinks I am. Out of curiosity, how do you envision Lechmere's involvement in the Pinchin Street case?

Do you see him abducting a woman and keeping her for a day or two at his mother's house, or in the out building? Then cutting her up without Ma Lechmere knowing about it, and lugging the torso through one of the most densely populated districts in the entire UK?

How was he able to do this without raising her suspicions, or do you share the belief that his mother was a strong-willed woman who taught her son to hate prostitutes, and thus maybe she even helped murder the victim and dispose of the body and hide the crime? This woman who was married for several years to a police constable?

I mean, does his mother living in the same general district--one of the most populated in London--really strengthen the case against him? I can see how someone might believe this is true of the Liz Stride case, but Pinchin Street? How does that one work, exactly?

One contemporary theory is that the Pinchin Street victim was murdered in some remote area and then deliberately dumped in the East End, the perpetrator or perpetrators hoping the credulous police would consider it as just another one of the Whitechapel Murders. If so, it didn't work. The police were highly skeptical, as am I.

Hi Rj
Well someone did all that will all the complications and risks and the police didnt think that there was a cart involved and that the person probably carried her there, so why not someone like Lech who has a clear close geographical connection to the immediate area? Maybe ma lech was gone for a day or two?
or possibly as Gary just mentioned, she had her cats meat shop nearby?

[MrBarnett]

Hi Rj
Well someone did all that will all the complications and risks and the police didnt think that there was a cart involved and that the person probably carried her there, so why not someone like Lech who has a clear close geographical connection to the immediate area? Maybe ma lech was gone for a day or two?
or possibly as Gary just mentioned, she had her cats meat shop nearby?

Maria’s ‘husband’ Joe Forsdike had been admitted to the STGITE workhouse in February, 1889 and he was then described as destitute. His death certificate shows he died at 147, Cable Street of senility and bronchitis. Strangely, his address as recorded in the burial register was 139, Cable Street. Both those addresses were on the north side of Cable Street, close to Pinchin Street. CAL would have been very familiar with Pinchin Street, he had lived there himself (in 1861 when it was called Thomas Street) and his mother and Joe Forsdike had lived there again in 1881.

[MrBarnett]

When the family were living in Pinchin (Thomas) Street in 1861 the surrounding area was known as Tiger Bay. It was one of the most notorious red light districts in London at the time. The next street down, Frederick Street, contained numerous brothels where sailors from the docks were entertained (and often robbed). Thomas Cross, who was a decade or so younger than Maria, must have come into contact with the Tigresses of Tiger Bay on a frequent basis.

Poor Maria.

[Fisherman]

What I suggest in my book is that Charles Lechmere was frustrated about how everybody seemed to think that the Ripper and the Torso killer were two different men. Serial killers are frequently narcissists, and they want recognition for what they do. There is the example of how the police told the press that the so called BTK killer was not really responsible for the many Wichita murders, and this made Rader so infuriated that he wrote to them to prove what he had done, and the police were then able to trace Rader via the computer he used.
My suggestion is that Lechmere killed the Pinchin Street victim and dumped her in Ripper territory with a blueprint cut down the whole abdomen, a cut that was made not to make eviscerations but instead to make a point: This is MY work, Ripper work, remember it? He then took off the arms and the head so that there were examples of explorations typical to both series; this too is MY work, remember the dismemberments? I am the single killer of ALL of these victims, when will you understand that?

If I am correct on all of this, it must have seemed bonkers to Lechmere that such a clear message was not deciphered correctly.

[MrBarnett]

What I suggest in my book is that Charles Lechmere was frustrated about how everybody seemed to think that the Ripper and the Torso killer were two different men. Serial killers are frequently narcissists, and they want recognition for what they do. There is the example of how the police told the press that the so called BTK killer was not really responsible for the many Wichita murders, and this made Rader so infuriated that he wrote to them to prove what he had done, and the police were then able to trace Rader via the computer he used.
My suggestion is that Lechmere killed the Pinchin Street victim and dumped her in Ripper territory with a blueprint cut down the whole abdomen, a cut that was made not to make eviscerations but instead to make a point: This is MY work, Ripper work, remember it? He then took off the arms and the head so that there were examples of explorations typical to both series; this too is MY work, remember the dismemberments? I am the single killer of ALL of these victims, when will you understand that?

If I am correct on all of this, it must have seemed bonkers to Lechmere that such a clear message was not deciphered correctly.

And if it was Lechmere sending a message, could he have found a more appropriate place to do so?

Where might young Crow have left his message?

[MrBarnett]

I appreciate its possible to create mountains out of molehills…

The papers had been banging on about the ‘Whitechapel’ murderer for months. The Pinchin Street torso was deposited just outside of Whitechapel - in St George E, where Lechmere had spent most of his life.

[rjpalmer]

This is MY work, Ripper work, remember it? He then took off the arms and the head so that there were examples of explorations typical to both series; this too is MY work, remember the dismemberments? I am the single killer of ALL of these victims, when will you understand that?

If I am correct on all of this, it must have seemed bonkers to Lechmere that such a clear message was not deciphered correctly.

The arms? I suspect you mean the legs. The Pinchin Street victim had her arms still attached.

So, if this is your theory, wouldn't the police dismissal of the Pinchin Street case have infuriated Lechmere even more?

Where is the result of this infuriation? He waits another 17 months and merely cuts a woman's throat in Swallow Gardens (a crime the police, correctly in my opinion, attributed to Sadler)?