Evidence of innocence

[Aethelwulf]

so all this and IMHO the timings minutia back and forth is basically secondary consideration. nothing can be proven on timings either way.


PC Thain walks down bucks row around 3:15 and shes not there. until about 3:45 as far as we know--No one is except polly nichols and her killer. But no one else is known to be in Bucks row in the intervening time. and its only about a half hour. Except Lech of course whos seen by a witness near the freshly killed victim before trying to raise any kind of alarm.

The ripper left Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly crime scenes unnoticed, so I don't think there is an issue with him also leaving Nicholls unseen.

[Abby Normal]

The ripper left Chapman, Stride, Eddowes and Kelly crime scenes unnoticed, so I don't think there is an issue with him also leaving Nicholls unseen.

respectfully disagree there wulf.
Chapman-probably seen by Mrs Long
stride-probably seen by schwartz
eddowes-probably seen by lawende and company
kelly- probably seen by cox, just possibly hutch

but its not exactly the point I was making anyways. of course he could have gotten away unseen from nichols, and I think there is a good chance he did. its just there is no evidence for it, or any evidence nichols was with any one else before, after or during the time frame of thain and the "finding" of her body. except lech.
whos seen with her freshly killed body by another witness before raising any alarm. with only a half hour time frame.

[Herlock Sholmes]

so all this and IMHO the timings minutia back and forth is basically secondary consideration. nothing can be proven on timings either way.

what timings are very important to me are this:

PC Thain walks down bucks row around 3:15 and shes not there. until about 3:45 as far as we know--No one is except polly nichols and her killer. But no one else is known to be in Bucks row in the intervening time. and its only about a half hour. Except Lech of course whos seen by a witness near the freshly killed victim before trying to raise any kind of alarm.

if thats not suspicious I dont know what is.

Just a mis-type Abby I know but it was Neil not Thain.

The problem for me Abby is that the murder would only have taken a couple of minutes or so. So Neil passes at 3.15 and Lech and Paul meet up someone between 3.40 and 3.45ish.

Thats 25 minutes for Polly to enter Bucks Row, run into the ripper and get killed. Let’s say easily 5 minutes (but possibly less) out of 25.

If even if they bumped into each other 10 minutes after Neil at 3.25 the killer could have been streets away by 3.30. Or they could have bumped into each other just around 6.35 and he’d still have been gone before Lech got there. Or he could have been slightly later and scarpered when he heard Lech approach. I’m not saying that it couldn’t have been Lech but just that there are other reasonable possibilities. Unknowns everywhere.

[Abby Normal]

Just a mis-type Abby I know but it was Neil not Thain.

The problem for me Abby is that the murder would only have taken a couple of minutes or so. So Neil passes at 3.15 and Lech and Paul meet up someone between 3.40 and 3.45ish.

Thats 25 minutes for Polly to enter Bucks Row, run into the ripper and get killed. Let’s say easily 5 minutes (but possibly less) out of 25.

If even if they bumped into each other 10 minutes after Neil at 3.25 the killer could have been streets away by 3.30. Or they could have bumped into each other just around 6.35 and he’d still have been gone before Lech got there. Or he could have been slightly later and scarpered when he heard Lech approach. I’m not saying that it couldn’t have been Lech but just that there are other reasonable possibilities. Unknowns everywhere.

absolutely Herlock-no problem there. as i mentioned to Aethulwulf, I think there is a good chance of that type scenario too.

btw is casebook wrong on this? taken from the nichols victim section
3:15 AM -- PC John Thain, 96J, passes down Buck's Row on his beat. He sees nothing unusual.

[Herlock Sholmes]

absolutely Herlock-no problem there. as i mentioned to Aethulwulf, I think there is a good chance of that type scenario too.

btw is casebook wrong on this? taken from the nichols victim section
3:15 AM -- PC John Thain, 96J, passes down Buck's Row on his beat. He sees nothing unusual.

I think it must be Abby.

Constable John Phail [sic – Thain], 96J, said he was not brought any closer to Buck’s-row in his beat than Brady-street, but he passed the end of it.

He was passing the end of Bucks Row when he saw Neil signalling with his lamp.

[Abby Normal]

I think it must be Abby.



He was passing the end of Bucks Row when he saw Neil signalling with his lamp.

so neil was the PC that passed down bucks row at 3:15 (not seeing anything) and then also discovered body about half an hour later?

[Herlock Sholmes]

so neil was the PC that passed down bucks row at 3:15 (not seeing anything) and then also discovered body about half an hour later?

That’s right.

[Abby Normal]

That’s right.

thanks buddy!

[Trevor Marriott]

That’s right.

Hi Herlock

Of course the officer could have missed seeing the body, if he walked down the road on the same side as Lechmere, he also could have mistaken the body for a tarpaulin, or if you belive Rubenhold he thought he saw someone sleeping rough on the street and simply passed by and if he did he was not going to say

Equally as previousy stated he did not walk down the road passing the spot at 3.15am and was somewhere else, the question is where does the truth lie someone is lying

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Aethelwulf]

Chapman-probably seen by Mrs Long
stride-probably seen by schwartz
eddowes-probably seen by lawende and company
kelly- probably seen by cox, just possibly hutch

aren't all of these before/arriving though? i'm talking about leaving unseen.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi Herlock

Of course the officer could have missed seeing the body, if he walked down the road on the same side as Lechmere, he also could have mistaken the body for a tarpaulin, or if you belive Rubenhold he thought he saw someone sleeping rough on the street and simply passed by and if he did he was not going to say

Equally as previousy stated he did not walk down the road passing the spot at 3.15am and was somewhere else, the question is where does the truth lie someone is lying

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hello Trevor,

Its not impossible. We can’t be 100% certain that all officers were attentive, particularly observant or that they weren’t just a bit lazy. It’s just something that we can’t know though. It’s worth mention the time gap between the conversation with Holland and the finding of her body.

Actually I’ll throw this one out there. Does the fact that she was last seen at 2.30 point away from Lechmere? If she met her killer on Bucks Row why did it take her so long to get to Bucks Row? If the explanation was that she wasn’t picked up in Bucks Row then surely this would count against Lech as he would hardly have picked up a woman streets away only to bring her back to kill her in a spot that he passed every day.

[drstrange169]

>>You can't be bothered? You started this stupid thread.<<

Surely you must have noticed by now John, Christer always disappears for awhile when his arguments start falling apart.


>>Is it just me who thinks that the phrase "The time at which the body was found cannot have been far from 3.45 a.m." by definition means the body was not actually found at 3:45, but at some time interval away from 3:45 that would not be considered long?<<

We all understand that Jeff, but Christer insists,

"Baxter very clearly says in the summary that the finding of the body cannot have been far off 3.45, meaning that we cannot rule out 3.45 or any of the minutes adjacent to it." Post #3569

[drstrange169]

>>Exactly Roger The worst possible witness to hang a theory on. He was very obvious wrong. Remove him and everything ties up.<<

Not just a bad witness, but the ONLY witness known too have given an untrue version of events. When your house is built on sand, it's going to fall over at some stage.

[SuperShodan]

And 3:30 would fit the innocent explanation, so I guess we're done then.

- Jeff

I don’t want to go over old ground again but Lechmere leaving at 03.30 means he is Jack the Ripper. He arrives in Bucks Row at 03.37.

[drstrange169]

>>PC Thain walks down bucks row around 3:15 and shes not there. until about 3:45 as far as we know--No one is except polly nichols and her killer. But no one else is known to be in Bucks row in the intervening time. and its only about a half hour. <<

If nobody else was there to see, how is anybody going to know who or what happened in the street before Cross arrived?


>>Except Lech of course whos seen by a witness near the freshly killed victim before trying to raise any kind of alarm. if thats not suspicious I dont know what is<<.

Except he was 3 house lengths away from the body when Paul saw him. How and why would he be there if he was the killer?

Unlike the other murders, the fact that Mrs Nichols had been murdered was not apparent, so why would Cross raise an alarm? The figure, at that stage, was a curiosity nothing else.

The problem is people add their knowledge of hindsight to the situation, instead of understanding what the people involved actually knew at the time.