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Why did Lechmere get involved with Paul ?

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  • Why did Lechmere get involved with Paul ?

    A question I've not seen considered. Paul was actively giving Lechmere and Mary a wide berth as he said he was worried about being accosted by a gang. So they're on the pavement and he's either in the road or on the other pavement trying to keep his distance and get past them. If Lechmere was the killer wouldn't he have just kept quiet and allowed Paul carry on his way ? Calling out to him suggests he wanted unnecessary involvement which suggests he wasn't the killer to me. Otherwise he'd have let Paul pass without arousing any attention. Or am I missing something ?

  • #2
    Lechemere wasn't the murderer.

    Let's pretend he was and why would he do that? If he has literally no time to escape and hears footsteps close by, his best bet would be to 'style it out'. By accosting Paul he controls the situation and comes across as a witness like him. If he allowed Paul to walk off then Paul could easily give a witness statement that would make the police think he was the murderer. It was quick thinking. If he was the murderer.

    Which he wasn't.
    "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
    - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

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    • #3
      Charles Cross was not on the pavement, he was in the middle of the road down from where Mrs Nichols was.
      dustymiller
      aka drstrange

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      • #4
        Originally posted by erobitha View Post
        Lechemere wasn't the murderer.

        Let's pretend he was and why would he do that? If he has literally no time to escape and hears footsteps close by, his best bet would be to 'style it out'. By accosting Paul he controls the situation and comes across as a witness like him. If he allowed Paul to walk off then Paul could easily give a witness statement that would make the police think he was the murderer. It was quick thinking. If he was the murderer.

        Which he wasn't.
        Paul wouldn't have been able to, or want to, see or identify him though. To me, if he was the killer he'd have let Paul go past then quickly walk in the other direction.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
          Charles Cross was not on the pavement, he was in the middle of the road down from where Mrs Nichols was.
          Ok, but do you see my point as a general concept ? Appreciate the correction though.

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          • #6
            Hi Dickere,

            How people interpret Cross/Lechmere's actions depends upon whether or not they think he's Mary's killer. If he's not, his actions are seen as someone who's come across a woman laying in the street, and so he asks Paul for assistance to determine what should be done. If he is, it becomes more complicated. As you point out, letting Paul avoid him, and pass by without getting a look at Mary, seems the most logical. However, for those who argue that Cross/Lechmere is her killer, his involving Paul is used to argue that Cross/Lechmere is a psychopath, and he's decided to bluff his way through rather than flee when Paul approaches in the first place. Cross/Lechmere is often portrayed in this scenario as being cool in the moment, and he is so confident in his abilities to talk his way out of the situation, that involving Paul comes across as him just getting a further thrill out of his murderous actions.

            It becomes circular, though. To explain his calling over of Paul one hypothesizes Cross/Lechmere is a psychopath, and then, to justify calling him a psychopath one points to him calling over Paul! Innocence, being the default state, is just looked at from the point of view of "is this behaviour inconsistent with innocence", which it is not. Hence, it is not evidence of innocence per se, but it is just behaviour that doesn't raise suspicion.

            - Jeff

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            • #7
              Originally posted by JeffHamm View Post
              Hi Dickere,

              How people interpret Cross/Lechmere's actions depends upon whether or not they think he's Mary's killer. If he's not, his actions are seen as someone who's come across a woman laying in the street, and so he asks Paul for assistance to determine what should be done. If he is, it becomes more complicated. As you point out, letting Paul avoid him, and pass by without getting a look at Mary, seems the most logical. However, for those who argue that Cross/Lechmere is her killer, his involving Paul is used to argue that Cross/Lechmere is a psychopath, and he's decided to bluff his way through rather than flee when Paul approaches in the first place. Cross/Lechmere is often portrayed in this scenario as being cool in the moment, and he is so confident in his abilities to talk his way out of the situation, that involving Paul comes across as him just getting a further thrill out of his murderous actions.

              It becomes circular, though. To explain his calling over of Paul one hypothesizes Cross/Lechmere is a psychopath, and then, to justify calling him a psychopath one points to him calling over Paul! Innocence, being the default state, is just looked at from the point of view of "is this behaviour inconsistent with innocence", which it is not. Hence, it is not evidence of innocence per se, but it is just behaviour that doesn't raise suspicion.

              - Jeff
              Well presented and thanks Jeff.

              If Lechmere was a psychopath, he'd get Paul involved only to kill him too though I'd have thought.

              I'm not saying he isn't suspicious but to me the behaviour of getting Paul involved lessens the suspicion. Though if he hadn't we'd probably not be aware of him at all of course.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dickere View Post

                If Lechmere was a psychopath, he'd get Paul involved only to kill him too though I'd have thought.
                Where is the fun in that?
                "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dickere View Post
                  A question I've not seen considered. Paul was actively giving Lechmere and Mary a wide berth as he said he was worried about being accosted by a gang. So they're on the pavement and he's either in the road or on the other pavement trying to keep his distance and get past them. If Lechmere was the killer wouldn't he have just kept quiet and allowed Paul carry on his way ? Calling out to him suggests he wanted unnecessary involvement which suggests he wasn't the killer to me. Otherwise he'd have let Paul pass without arousing any attention. Or am I missing something ?
                  hi dickere (interesting name)
                  yes. one would think he would let him pass if he was the murderer, or even take off before he got that close. but if he was the killer perhaps he was surprised by pauls appearance and decided to stay put and engage him to see how much did he see.
                  "Is all that we see or seem
                  but a dream within a dream?"

                  -Edgar Allan Poe


                  "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                  quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                  -Frederick G. Abberline

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post

                    hi dickere (interesting name)
                    yes. one would think he would let him pass if he was the murderer, or even take off before he got that close. but if he was the killer perhaps he was surprised by pauls appearance and decided to stay put and engage him to see how much did he see.
                    Thanks

                    We'll never know but still. You could be right, though wouldn't he have heard Paul coming from some distance ? If he was the killer to my mind he'd either have run off first or kept his head down if Paul was trying to avoid him.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Dickere View Post

                      Thanks

                      We'll never know but still. You could be right, though wouldn't he have heard Paul coming from some distance ? If he was the killer to my mind he'd either have run off first or kept his head down if Paul was trying to avoid him.
                      I have to keep qualifying that I don’t believe Lechmere was the murderer, but if he was he would most likely be a psychopath.

                      A psychopath would not run when caught in the act like that. They are not manic. With a policeman, many in that situation would almost give themselves up. It is the end of the game. Many can’t wait to start revelling in the glory of their ‘accomplishments’.

                      With a member of the public there would be no need to kill them if they did not see anything or threatened to report that they did. If Lechmere was the killer he would have been quickly convinced that Paul saw nothing and now fooling him becomes part of the fun. He even acquires an alibi. Adds to the egotism that you are smarter than everyone else.

                      Lechmere didn’t murder Nichols.
                      "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                      - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                        I have to keep qualifying that I don’t believe Lechmere was the murderer, but if he was he would most likely be a psychopath.

                        A psychopath would not run when caught in the act like that. They are not manic. With a policeman, many in that situation would almost give themselves up. It is the end of the game. Many can’t wait to start revelling in the glory of their ‘accomplishments’.

                        With a member of the public there would be no need to kill them if they did not see anything or threatened to report that they did. If Lechmere was the killer he would have been quickly convinced that Paul saw nothing and now fooling him becomes part of the fun. He even acquires an alibi. Adds to the egotism that you are smarter than everyone else.

                        Lechmere didn’t murder Nichols.
                        And the evidence that Lechmere was a psychopath is ????
                        G U T

                        There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by GUT View Post

                          And the evidence that Lechmere was a psychopath is ????
                          I’m pretty sure I qualified maybe five times that Lechmere didn’t kill Nichols. Ergo….

                          I was simply saying if he was a psychopath this is more likely how a psychopath would behave.
                          "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                          - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by erobitha View Post

                            I’m pretty sure I qualified maybe five times that Lechmere didn’t kill Nichols. Ergo….

                            I was simply saying if he was a psychopath this is more likely how a psychopath would behave.
                            To be fair, it was if he was the murderer he was likely to be a psychopath. That would apply to whoever JtR was though.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Dickere View Post

                              To be fair, it was if he was the murderer he was likely to be a psychopath. That would apply to whoever JtR was though.
                              Correct
                              "When the legend becomes fact... print the legend"
                              - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance (1962)

                              Comment

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