Framing Charles

[MrBarnett]

All this nonsense about ‘book carriers’ is in relation to Pickfords’ parcel delivery business in the 1860s.

Fiver obviously believes, like many others, that Google is a modern day Oracle.

What a waste of everybody’s time.

[Fiver]

You have information about Charles Lechmere’s work at Pickfords? Really???

Please enlighten us.

Was there anything unclear or incorrect in what I said?

Where do you get the idea that I have uncritically accepted that Lechmere had Sundays off? The fact is that I’ve argued against that assumption for years, but have recently found evidence that makes it more likely.

The enthusiasm you've shown in going after anyone who disagreed with Fisherman's theory gave me the impression you agreed with Fisherman on all points. I haven't seen that enthusiasm directed towards the weak points in Fisherman's theory.

Has it occurred to you that some perishable commodities could not have been delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street?

They certainly would have been on a timeclock with perishables. The example I gave mentioned "an open basket of Welsh mutton", which clearly was shipped to London from Wales without benefit of refrigeration. Of course, I did not claim that perishables were delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street. I'd expect perishables to be delivered first. But most of Pickford's business was not perishables - the example I linked included "chairs, fenders, barrels, looking-glasses, pottery". Some of those are fragile, but none are perishable.

[MrBarnett]

Was there anything unclear or incorrect in what I said?



The enthusiasm you've shown in going after anyone who disagreed with Fisherman's theory gave me the impression you agreed with Fisherman on all points. I haven't seen that enthusiasm directed towards the weak points in Fisherman's theory.



They certainly would have been on a timeclock with perishables. The example I gave mentioned "an open basket of Welsh mutton", which clearly was shipped to London from Wales without benefit of refrigeration. Of course, I did not claim that perishables were delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street. I'd expect perishables to be delivered first. But most of Pickford's business was not perishables - the example I linked included "chairs, fenders, barrels, looking-glasses, pottery". Some of those are fragile, but none are perishable.

So, you’ve no idea whether Lechmere was delivering perishables to a single receiver or non-perishables to multiple receivers? Can you hazard a guess at what commodity Lechmere might have been delivering? Are there any clues in his and his family’s later life?

What kind of goods do you think would more likeky require a driver to be at work by 4am? Perishable goods in bulk to wholesale markets or parcels to multiple receivers?

[Abby Normal]

Exactly. The theory requires Lechmere to leave the house at least 3 hours earlier than he normally would. Make that 4 if, as some theorize, Lechmere visited his mother before going on to commit the double event and visit Goulston Street.

hi fiver
whos theory? yours and rjs? its a ludicrous idea. as ive said numerous times the most likely scenario would be lech visiting his mom after work on saturday and then heading out on the hunt after that.

[Abby Normal]

So you're suggesting that Charles Lechmere stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to murder Stride and Eddowes? That's not impossible, but even with an extra long shift, he could have found a victim five or six hours before Elizabeth Stride was killed.

you have heard of adreniline? or maybe he took a nap at moms.
he could have found a victim five or six hours before stride? really? like shooting fish in the barrel then?

[rjpalmer]

hi fiver
whos theory? yours and rjs? its a ludicrous idea.

Hello Abby - I assure you that I have no theory whatsoever that touches on what the carman Charles Lechmere may or may not have been doing on the night of the 'double event.' As I say, he has no provable alibi, but then neither does the majority of 'suspects' named over the years.

I was just voicing skepticism at the claim that the murders of Stride and Eddowes being earlier in the evening 'fit nicely' with Lechmere having Sunday off. It seems like a weak indicator, at best, and, indeed, I can't even quite follow the reasoning.

I suppose what is being suggested is that, since Lechmere would have the opportunity to sleep in, and it was Saturday night, he could have stayed out visiting and boozing until 2 a.m. in the morning.

Maybe so, maybe not--we might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It could just as easily have been Cutbush or Druitt or Bury or Kosminski out on a spree.

I am more interested in the supposed 3-3.30 a.m. pattern in the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly that Fish is seeing, that would indicate a man traversing the murder zone within a very narrow window of time.

But does such a pattern even exist? In at least two of those cases, and possibly in three, the time of death is far from certain. And how compelling is that pattern, if the same theorist is forced to admit murders also occurred two hours earlier, and one body--supposedly in the same series--was dumped two hours later?

It doesn't make it impossible that the same man was guilty of committing all seven murders, but it clearly weakens the supposed pattern that was pointing at him in the first place.

I don't think that is a particularly controversial position, is it?

Unlike 'Fiver,' I don't dispute that the Stride murder occurring close to Ma Lechmere's house is a 'fun fact.' If one believes, as Fish believes, that the Stride murder and the Pinchin Street case are connected to the Nichols murder, I can see why it would excite his interest. But isn't the geographical coincidence enough? Do we have to also pretend, as the 'Missing Evidence' documentary does, that the fuzzy and uncertain 'timing' of the murders is also suggestive?


R P

[Fisherman]

Fisherman doesn't know what Lechmere's shift patterns were, either. Yet you uncritically accept his claims that Lechmere had Sundays off and worked variable shifts.

Oopla there! When did I say that he worked variable shifts? I said that we know that his timing schedule for the Nichgols murders fit with the Spitalfields murders, and that the Pinchin Street dumping happened a year afterwards, and so we must weigh in the POSSIBILITY that he worked other times at that stage. For the eminent reason that I do not know, I didnīt say that he did.

[Fisherman]

You still appear to not understand what the word "coincidence" means. You chose the Pinchin Street torso while ignoring all the other Torso victims. You chose a Torso Killer victim without providing any evidence to show that they were also the Ripper. You chose to ignore the bloody rag found west of Pinchin street and on the same day. You chose to draw a line to the a bloody apron was discovered at the building site of St Philips Church the day after the Pinchin Street Torso was found. You chose to ignore that there is no evidence that the apron had any connection to the Torso killings. You chose to start your line from Pinchin Street, not from St Philips Church. You chose to ignore that the building site of St Philips Church covered an entire block, not a single point. You chose a single point on that line, ignoring dozens of other houses on that line. You chose to ignore that you don't have a line starting from Pinchin Street, you have a conethat "points" towards dozens of blocks and hundreds of houses. Your line points to Charles Lechmere because you chose to ignore all the lines that don't point to him.

No, the line points to Charles Lechmeres home because the apron described was placed at St Philips Church.

[Fisherman]

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

The possibility cannot be ruled out, Iīm afraid, no matter how "virtually impossible" you like to think it is. None of us know the specifics of Lechmereīs work that day and so the door is wide ajar.

At the end of the day, though, I would gladly accept if you could prove (but you canīt) that Charles Lechmere could not possibly have carried out the murder at around 6 Am and while doing his rounds, because I am very sure that Chapman was long dead at that stage.

And that applies regardless about how apparent (or not) it is that I donīt know anything about the shipping business, actually.

[Fisherman]

Was there anything unclear or incorrect in what I said?

I would not go there if I were you.

[Fisherman]

Hello Abby - I assure you that I have no theory whatsoever that touches on what the carman Charles Lechmere may or may not have been doing on the night of the 'double event.' As I say, he has no provable alibi, but then neither does the majority of 'suspects' named over the years.

I was just voicing skepticism at the claim that the murders of Stride and Eddowes being earlier in the evening 'fit nicely' with Lechmere having Sunday off. It seems like a weak indicator, at best, and, indeed, I can't even quite follow the reasoning.

I suppose what is being suggested is that, since Lechmere would have the opportunity to sleep in, and it was Saturday night, he could have stayed out visiting and boozing until 2 a.m. in the morning.

Maybe so, maybe not--we might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It could just as easily have been Cutbush or Druitt or Bury or Kosminski out on a spree.

I am more interested in the supposed 3-3.30 a.m. pattern in the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly that Fish is seeing, that would indicate a man traversing the murder zone within a very narrow window of time.

But does such a pattern even exist? In at least two of those cases, and possibly in three, the time of death is far from certain. And how compelling is that pattern, if the same theorist is forced to admit murders also occurred two hours earlier, and one body--supposedly in the same series--was dumped two hours later?

It doesn't make it impossible that the same man was guilty of committing all seven murders, but it clearly weakens the supposed pattern that was pointing at him in the first place.

I don't think that is a particularly controversial position, is it?

Unlike 'Fiver,' I don't dispute that the Stride murder occurring close to Ma Lechmere's house is a 'fun fact.' If one believes, as Fish believes, that the Stride murder and the Pinchin Street case are connected to the Nichols murder, I can see why it would excite his interest. But isn't the geographical coincidence enough? Do we have to also pretend, as the 'Missing Evidence' documentary does, that the fuzzy and uncertain 'timing' of the murders is also suggestive?


R P

Fuzzy?

What is fuzzy about how Charles Lechmere is proven to have made an early morning work trek to Broad Street on the 31st of August 1888, aiming to arrive at 4 AM?

What is unclear about that? Or fuzzy?

What is unclear about how Tabram, Chapman and Kelly were found dead at times that are roughly consistent with the killer having been in place in the early morning hours at the murder sites?

You write that "the supposed 3-3.30 a.m. pattern in the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly that Fish is seeing ... would indicate a man traversing the murder zone within a very narrow window of time."

To begin with, we KNOW that Nichols was slain at around 3.40-3.45, give or take the odd minute, so she is a given. As for the others, I am not suggesting a "very narrow window of time at all", and I have pointed that out on numerous occasions. I have said that if Lechmere was the killer (and he was, actually), then he would likely be prone to lying. And in fact, although he SAID he left home at 3.20, devious bastards who do these kinds of things may SAY one thing but do another, and so he may have left at 3.00. Or 2.47. Or 3.02. Or any other time he chose to in order to allow for him to find somebody to kill and cut up before proceeding to his work, and then - surprise, surprise - he lied about it at the inquest.

Naughty, I know, but there you are.

In actual fact, although the Ripperīs deeds have been desribed as blitz style murders, they must have occupied some little time. And so, if Lechmere always left home at a time that demanded that he walked briskly to Broad Street, he would be late there on every occasion when he killed. Accordingly, we must allow for the possibility that he added time in order to allow for him to both kill and get to work at 4AM. Once again, this is not rocket science.

Whichever way we look on things, the geographical factor is a dead giveaway for his status as a suspect, since the Spitalfields murders ALL happened in spots that were logically along his fastest route to work. And as professor Larsson worked out, for any other killer to randomly have chosen to kill four times on the twenty streets Lechmere seemingly passed along and in no other Spitalfields street, it boils down to a one in five million chance.

Although this number will not be exact in any way, it remains a number that must be looked upon with tremendous respect.

As I keep saying: If we think that Lechmere is a very good suspect on account of the many things pointing in his direction like the pulled down clothing, the disagreement with the police and so on, and if we decide to have a look at his geography and timings - we could not possibly ask for a more damning result. That is why this thread is called "Framing Charles" - either we have our killer, or we have a set of mindblowing coincidences. And I know which is the easy solution to that particular riddle.

The notion that he had a reason to be on these streets is neither here nor there in that context. It is not something that detracts from his potential culpability in any way. The US has itīs fair amount of highway killings carried out by lorry drivers who pick up women along their working routes. If we were to clear anybody who had reason to be in the spots where they picked their victims up, we may just as well say that once we start work in the morning, we are not eligible for any accusations of foul play until we check out in the evening, because murder is a free time pastime only.

Serial killing is to a very large degree about opportunism for the simple reason that it is also about the murder of strangers. When the opportunity comes along, the fewest serial killers ask their intended prey if they could kindly return to the same spot after working hours.

PS. I am still waiting for your explanation to why there are so many very rare similarities between the two murder series if they are not connected. If you do not have an answer for that or if you do not - for whatever reason - want to share it with the rest of us, please just say so.

[Fisherman]

It’s odd that you use the word ‘shipping’ to describe road transport.

You didnīt know? His cart was called the S/S Maria Louisa...

[MrBarnett]

You didnīt know? His cart was called the S/S Maria Louisa...

I worked for an international trading company for the best part of 30 years and can waffle on about demurrage/despatch/bills of lading/charter parties as well as anyone. Knowledge of shipping doesn’t help us I’m afraid. What we need to know to work out CAL’s shift patterns is what he carried on his cart.

Here are two options:

He carried small parcels to numerous destinations, weaving through the clogged arteries of Victorian London. Multiple drop-offs and timings at the mercy of the traffic. He might be out and about all day doing that and it would have been a two man job.

He carried perishable goods to a single location (Smithfield/Billingsgate for example) where delivery was required in the early hours and where the unloading was largely done by the customer’s porters. One stop per journey and a bit of hanging about.

As you know, I favour horseflesh as being the commodity he carried and that would have been very similar to delivering fish or meat.

[MrBarnett]

We start with the fact that Polly Nichols was killed on the precise route that CAL took to work and at pretty much the same time he was there. That fits very nicely.

Tabram, Chapman and Kelly can also be said to have been killed ‘on his route’, especially if he encountered Kelly as he crossed Commercial Street where it appears she was soliciting that night. To shoehorn Tabram in we have to have an alternative work route, which isn’t the end of the world. It’s the timings that don’t fit quite so nicely with these three.

Stride is completely out of whack in terms of both timing and location re his working route, but if Sunday was his day off, a trip to see his mother/stepfather/daughter and/or old pals in St Georges would fit. That’s how it’s been sold over the years with the ‘Sunday was a day off for most working men’ throwaway.

Now, I’ve often challenged that. Many people worked on Sundays and I saw no reason to believe CAL might not be one of them. Until I found the piece about cats meat being difficult to get on a Sunday because Broad Street was largely unmanned. Add that to my understanding that Sunday was generally a day off for horseflesh dealers and my suspicion that that was what CAL carried on his cart and you have a likely shift pattern that FITS VERY NICELY with CAL being in St Georges around midnight on a Saturday.

[MrBarnett]

I worked for an international trading company for the best part of 30 years and can waffle on about demurrage/despatch/bills of lading/charter parties as well as anyone. Knowledge of shipping doesn’t help us I’m afraid. What we need to know to work out CAL’s shift patterns is what he carried on his cart.

Here are two options:

He carried small parcels to numerous destinations, weaving through the clogged arteries of Victorian London. Multiple drop-offs and timings at the mercy of the traffic. He might be out and about all day doing that and it would have been a two man job.

He carried perishable goods to a single location (Smithfield/Billingsgate for example) where delivery was required in the early hours and where the unloading was largely done by the customer’s porters. One stop per journey and a bit of hanging about.

As you know, I favour horseflesh as being the commodity he carried and that would have been very similar to delivering fish or meat.

BTW, I also worked at Billingsgate market, so I have first hand experience of the activity there being confined to the early morning. A carman whose job it was to deliver to the early morning markets might well knock off work around midday, after a shift of 8/9 hours and have plenty of time to go home and get a few hours shut-eye before going out for a few jars with his mates and popping in to see his Ma and daughter. If he was feeling flush, he might even pop in to a local shop and buy them a few grapes or something. He knew the area well (he’d spent most of his life there) so he’d know all the convenient little backstreet shops.