Framing Charles

[rjpalmer]

That is a whole different ballgame when it comes to REALLY hard questions. Having swopped a working day with a mate or having changed schedules, for example, is not exactly earthshattering, is it?

You should try to answer the more important matters before you turn to mere trivialities, R J.

Can you?

How is this a triviality? Perhaps you've moved on, Fish, and have abandoned the earlier claims, but a major plank in the documentary's argument was that Lechmere's work schedule--his comings & goings to work--placed him at the scene of the murders 'at the time they occurred.' Scobie even used the phrase that Lechmere was 'geographically AND physically' linked to the scene of the crimes by this 'coincidence' of timings.

You yourself set the groundwork for this line of reasoning, and this is why critics of the Lechmere theory keep bringing up instances that seem to conflict with this theoretical time table. It's not really very surprising that 'Fiver' does so too, is it? By suggesting that the Chapman murder and the Pinchin Street deposit took place after Lechmere's commute to work?

All I am saying is that one can't have their cake and eat it, too.

If it is now being admitted that Lechemere's work schedule is completely unknown and unknowable, then the documentary obviously made a deeply misleading claim, and no such 'coincidence' of timings exists.

Lechmere has no alibi; on the other hand, his known movements do not in any way implicate him.

Fair enough?

[Fiver]

When Stride was killed, Lechmere´s mother lived in 1 Maryann Street. One block only separated that address from Berner Street.

Thank you for the information, but that is a very inaccurate description of the distance between Dutfield's Yard, where Stride was killed, and 1 Maryann Street.

From Dutfield's Yard you'd have to walk south on Berner Street, past Fanny Mortimer, who didn't see Lechmere. He would have to walk four blocks south past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Streets until he reached Ellen Street. Then walk a block east to Stutfield Street. Then walk another block south to Maryann Street.

Berner Street was not a through street and it angled against him, so it would not be Lechmere's route from his home to 1 Maryann Street. It would be a minimum of a 3 block deviation from Lechemere's route between his home and his mother's residence at 1 Maryann Street.

[Fiver]

I’m of the opinion that Lechmere carried cat’s meat on his cart, so the discovery above adds weight to the idea that Sunday was his day off.

Sunday was a normal working day for many, but not, it would seem, for those carrying cat’s meat from LNWR stations.

As a driver for Pickford's Lechemere would have transported a large variety of goods to both individuals and businesses. One period example load included "Chairs, fenders, barrels, looking-glasses, pottery, and an open basket of Welsh mutton, merely covered by an old newspaper."

[Fisherman]

How is this a triviality?

It is a triviality since Lechmere may well NOT have worked on the day the Pinchin Street body was dumped. It is not as if it is an established fact, is it?
When there is very poignant evidence pointing in somebody´s direction, and that person is likely to have an alibi on this kind of ground (he normally worked on the day in question),it is not as if the police accept that he MUST have done so since he usually did. What they do is to look int whether he may actually NOT have worked that day - and they do so because the evidence involved calls upon them to do it.
As I said, he may have swopped his working day, he may have been handed another schedule by his employer and so on. These are and remain very trivial matters.

Perhaps you've moved on, Fish, and have abandoned the earlier claims, but a major plank in the documentary's argument was that Lechmere's work schedule--his comings & goings to work--placed him at the scene of the murders 'at the time they occurred.' Scobie even used the phrase that Lechmere was 'geographically AND physically' linked to the scene of the crimes by this 'coincidence' of timings.

Did you not read my post? I am saying that the Nichols murder suggests that his working day started at 4 AM, and so the other Spitalfields murders would fit that schedule, as would the Stride and Eddowed murders if his day off was Sunday. That does not men, however, that I predispose that he must have worked on Tuesday the 10th of September 1889. As I said, there can have been a lot of trivial reasons why he perhaps didn´t.
It is not rocket science, RJ, is it?

You yourself set the groundwork for this line of reasoning, and this is why critics of the Lechmere theory keep bringing up instances that seem to conflict with this theoretical time table. It's not really very surprising that 'Fiver' does so too, is it? By suggesting that the Chapman murder and the Pinchin Street deposit took place after Lechmere's commute to work?

The Chapman murder was never regarded as having taken place late back in the day. The Home Office files are clear on the point: "doubtful evidence points to some thing between 5:30 and 6: - but medical evidence says about 4 o'cl." So they decided that the three witnesses needed to be doubted, and it is only in our own "enlightened" times that the mantra has become that Chapman died at 5.30 or later. I have never thought so for a minute, and I explain why in my book. Regardless if we want to go with the doubtful evidence (be my guest) or the medical one, the fact remains that we cannot claim that it is a proven thing that Lechmere could not be Chapmans killer.
As for the Pinchon Street torso, we should ask how it works together with the likely working times for Lechmere, so I don´t criticize Fiver for it. I criticise him for claiming that it is proven that Lechmere cannot have been the killer/dumper. That´s where he goes very, very wrong - and he has a tradition of doing so. It´s up to you if you want to go along for that particular ride or not.

All I am saying is that one can't have their cake and eat it, too.

Which reads "If it is reasoned that Lechmere worked from 4 AM in the mornings between August and November of 1888, then it must be accepted that he was at work on Tuesday the 10th of September 1889 too".
That´s great stuff, R J. You should be proud of yourself - you just invented Ripperological fundamentalism as an art form.

If it is now being admitted that Lechemere's work schedule is completely unknown and unknowable, then the documentary obviously made a deeply misleading claim, and no such 'coincidence' of timings exists.

Then again, no such thing is admitted. It may of course be a dream of yours, but alas, it never happened. This is a simple case of pointing out that people who have a schedule at work sometimes have that schedule changed over the years, and they sometimes swop shifts with working comrades. Actually, they sometimes call in sick, even! No matter how you may believe that it unfair of me to suggest such things, they are actually - here it comes again - perfectly trivial.

Lechmere has no alibi; on the other hand, his known movements do not in any way implicate him.

Fair enough?

Fair? More like dumb, actually. We both know that his movements involve being in place in Bucks Row at a time when Nichols would go on to bleed for many a minute, and so he IS implicated in one of the cases.

As I have said before, he may have been in Jamaica when Tabram had her heart pierced, building an igloo in Greenland when Chapman died, digging gold in the Yukon when Stride fell prey, hunting ducks in Denmark when Eddowes lost her life and locked in the toilet of the British Museum when Kelly was cut up. The thing is, we don´t know. But we DO know that the implications of the Nichols murder is that he was instead passing through Spitalfields as Tabram, Chapman and Kelly died.
He therefore fits the bill as well as one can possibly hope for. End of.

In the Pinchin Street case, we can see that it seems unlikely that he worked the 4AM shift and still dumped the body in Pinchin Street. But the implications as such are that he was the killer, and so we must ask ourselves if we can overcome the "problem". And yes, we can:

- He may have swopped shifts with somebody.
- He may have worked to another schedule - a year had passed and people DO change schedules every now and then.
- He may have called in sick.
- He may even have worked from 4 AM, and taken the body along on his morning tour and dumped it (it is not a suggestion I favour, but is it impossible? No.)
- Pennett may have been wrong about how the body was not in place when he passed the spot earlier.
- Somebody may have dumped the body for him.

Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.

Now, why would we work from the assumption that there IS an explanation? Why do we not do as Fiver and you and claim that it is completely impossible that Lechmere was the one who dumped the body?

Well, that brings us back to the question you left unanswered for some reason (because you have no good answer, perhaps...?):

The Pinchin Street woman was part of a series that involved cutting from ribs to pubes (very, very unusual), that encompassed taking out sexual organs (very, very, very unusual), that involved taking out non-sexual organs (even more unusual) and that also involved cutting away the abdominal wall in large sections from victims (almost unheard of and unusual in the extreme). Further to this, in both series, rings were taken from the victims fingers, and in both series, there was a lack of signs of physical torture, something that should be expcted in the torso series at any rate (abduction murders and murders where the killer see to it that he has ample time alone with his victims in a secluded space will normally involve serious elements of torture).

I asked you in my former post how you explain why this would NOT be the work of a single killer.

Can I have your answer now, please? It is a much less trivial matter, as I said, and so I am interested to hear your view.

[Fisherman]

Thank you for the information, but that is a very inaccurate description of the distance between Dutfield's Yard, where Stride was killed, and 1 Maryann Street.

From Dutfield's Yard you'd have to walk south on Berner Street, past Fanny Mortimer, who didn't see Lechmere. He would have to walk four blocks south past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Streets until he reached Ellen Street. Then walk a block east to Stutfield Street. Then walk another block south to Maryann Street.

Berner Street was not a through street and it angled against him, so it would not be Lechmere's route from his home to 1 Maryann Street. It would be a minimum of a 3 block deviation from Lechemere's route between his home and his mother's residence at 1 Maryann Street.

The distance was perhaps 150-200 yards. Expressing it otherwise, it was a stone´s throw away.

You need to be informed about the things you debate about. You said that you knew where Maria Louisa lived, and you didn´t. It is a VERY shaky ground to level criticism from, I´m afraid.

[Fiver]

Well, the idea that Lechmere couldn't have been there on a Saturday Night is, of course, nonsense; on the other hand, I don't see how a 1 a.m. murder preceding his day off 'fits nicely.'

If he's slogging to work at 3.30 a.m. for years on end, then he's most likely in a routine of hitting the hay by 8 or 9 in the evening. (I speak from some experience on this score). And he's made a rather long day of it if he's worked the Saturday shift and is still roaming the streets at 1 a.m. later that night. Working men (and women) are famous for letting their hair down on Saturday night, but if he's a 3.30 a.m. riser with a large family, I'm thinking 11 p.m. would hit him like a brick wall. Nor is the idea of Lechmere getting up 2 1/2 hours early on his day off, in order to trawl the streets, after a six day work week, all that convincing. Even a murderer gets knackered.

Exactly. The theory requires Lechmere to leave the house at least 3 hours earlier than he normally would. Make that 4 if, as some theorize, Lechmere visited his mother before going on to commit the double event and visit Goulston Street.

[Fiver]

You have no idea what Lechmere's shift patterns were.

Fisherman doesn't know what Lechmere's shift patterns were, either. Yet you uncritically accept his claims that Lechmere had Sundays off and worked variable shifts.

I do have some knowledge of shipping/receiving, as well as information about period technology and Charles Lechmere's work at Pickfords. So while I do not know for certain, I can make some educated guesses.

Shifts in shipping would have standardized starting times. They normally do today and few if any carmen would have telephones, so management would not be able to call and reschedule. Variable shifts make it harder for management to plan schedules. They're even harder on the workers and even Ebenezer Scrooge might be smart enough to realize variable shifts results in sleep-deprived workers who are more likely to make mistakes in deliveries or get in accidents, neither of which help the company. Charles Lechmere worked at the Broad Street Station, where Pickfords would be receiving shipments that arrived on regularly scheduled trains. Charles Lechford had a fair amount of seniority, with over twenty years of experience at Pickford's.

Unless someone can provide evidence that Pickfords used variable shifts, the most logical assumption is that Pickfords would have used standard starting times for shifts. After over 20 years, Lechmere would have found the shift that was the best, or perhaps least bad, shift for him and would be unlikely to change it. Lechmere also probably got Sundays off, due to seniority, and would be unlikely to change it.

Workers sometimes trade shifts, but it does not happen often. Far more likely is for workers with the same shift to trade days off.

A carman killing on the way to work has very little slack time and no excuse for showing up to work with fresh bloodstains on his clothing. If Charles Lechmere was the Ripper we'd expect all of the killings to be between 3:30am and 3:45am on work days and 3:30am or later on his days off. That makes it wildly unlikely that Charles Lechmere killed Chapman, Stride, Eddowes. or the Pinchin Street Torso.

The variable part of shipping/receiving is when a shift is finished, which can change significantly based on how much needed to be delivered and how well the delivery list was organized. Starting work at 4am means Charles Lechmere would probably finish his deliveries 8 to 10 hours later, though an unusually slow day might take only 6 hours and an unusually busy one might take 11 hours. Mrs Lechmere would not expect her husband to be home at the same time twice in a row and arriving home as early as 11am or as late as 4pm would be possible. A killer carman would have hours of slack after work, not the 10 or 15 minutes squeezed into his trip to work. Plus fresh blood stains could be explained as being unlucky enough to get stuck transporting improperly wrapped meat.

If we're looking for a killer carman to pin the Ripper crimes on, we should look for one who started work at 4pm, not 4am.

[Fiver]

Of course it does, Abbey. Or maybe he goes home first to freshen up and then goes to see his mum, daughter, step-father in the early evening.

And let’s not forget that area of St George’s is where he had spent most of his life - 30 years or so. His friends and old neighbours were there, the pubs, shops etc he was familiar with. According to the electoral register, his mother etc were living 1, Mary Ann Street in 1888. Ellen Street ran across the bottom of Berners Street and Mary Ann Street was immediately behind that. ‘A stone’s throw’ is not meant to be taken literally, it means a short distance away. Mary Ann Street was a short distance from Berners Street - a few minutes walk away.

So you're suggesting that Charles Lechmere stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to murder Stride and Eddowes? That's not impossible, but even with an extra long shift, he could have found a victim five or six hours before Elizabeth Stride was killed.

[Fiver]

There can be no certainty at all concerning these matters. What there CAN be a certainty about is that on the day after the Pinchin Street torso was found, a bloody apron was discovered at the building site of St Philips Church. And St Phillips Church is situated exactly on a direct line drawn from Pinchin Street up to 22 Doveton Street, where Charles Lechmere lived. That, and that only is what I am saying - it would be an almighty coincidence if these geographical implications were NOT due to how Lechmere was the killer. There are scores of things beforehand that point to him (unless they are nothing but a tremendous heap of more coincidences) and so the apron at St Philips is either a completely logical matter or a breathtaking coincidence.

You don´t have to like it, but you need to learn to live with it.

You still appear to not understand what the word "coincidence" means. You chose the Pinchin Street torso while ignoring all the other Torso victims. You chose a Torso Killer victim without providing any evidence to show that they were also the Ripper. You chose to ignore the bloody rag found west of Pinchin street and on the same day. You chose to draw a line to the a bloody apron was discovered at the building site of St Philips Church the day after the Pinchin Street Torso was found. You chose to ignore that there is no evidence that the apron had any connection to the Torso killings. You chose to start your line from Pinchin Street, not from St Philips Church. You chose to ignore that the building site of St Philips Church covered an entire block, not a single point. You chose a single point on that line, ignoring dozens of other houses on that line. You chose to ignore that you don't have a line starting from Pinchin Street, you have a conethat "points" towards dozens of blocks and hundreds of houses. Your line points to Charles Lechmere because you chose to ignore all the lines that don't point to him.

[MrBarnett]

Fisherman doesn't know what Lechmere's shift patterns were, either. Yet you uncritically accept his claims that Lechmere had Sundays off and worked variable shifts.

I do have some knowledge of shipping/receiving, as well as information about period technology and Charles Lechmere's work at Pickfords. So while I do not know for certain, I can make some educated guesses.

Shifts in shipping would have standardized starting times. They normally do today and few if any carmen would have telephones, so management would not be able to call and reschedule. Variable shifts make it harder for management to plan schedules. They're even harder on the workers and even Ebenezer Scrooge might be smart enough to realize variable shifts results in sleep-deprived workers who are more likely to make mistakes in deliveries or get in accidents, neither of which help the company. Charles Lechmere worked at the Broad Street Station, where Pickfords would be receiving shipments that arrived on regularly scheduled trains. Charles Lechford had a fair amount of seniority, with over twenty years of experience at Pickford's.

Unless someone can provide evidence that Pickfords used variable shifts, the most logical assumption is that Pickfords would have used standard starting times for shifts. After over 20 years, Lechmere would have found the shift that was the best, or perhaps least bad, shift for him and would be unlikely to change it. Lechmere also probably got Sundays off, due to seniority, and would be unlikely to change it.

Workers sometimes trade shifts, but it does not happen often. Far more likely is for workers with the same shift to trade days off.

A carman killing on the way to work has very little slack time and no excuse for showing up to work with fresh bloodstains on his clothing. If Charles Lechmere was the Ripper we'd expect all of the killings to be between 3:30am and 3:45am on work days and 3:30am or later on his days off. That makes it wildly unlikely that Charles Lechmere killed Chapman, Stride, Eddowes. or the Pinchin Street Torso.

The variable part of shipping/receiving is when a shift is finished, which can change significantly based on how much needed to be delivered and how well the delivery list was organized. Starting work at 4am means Charles Lechmere would probably finish his deliveries 8 to 10 hours later, though an unusually slow day might take only 6 hours and an unusually busy one might take 11 hours. Mrs Lechmere would not expect her husband to be home at the same time twice in a row and arriving home as early as 11am or as late as 4pm would be possible. A killer carman would have hours of slack after work, not the 10 or 15 minutes squeezed into his trip to work. Plus fresh blood stains could be explained as being unlucky enough to get stuck transporting improperly wrapped meat.

If we're looking for a killer carman to pin the Ripper crimes on, we should look for one who started work at 4pm, not 4am.

You have information about Charles Lechmere’s work at Pickfords? Really???

Please enlighten us.

Where do you get the idea that I have uncritically accepted that Lechmere had Sundays off? The fact is that I’ve argued against that assumption for years, but have recently found evidence that makes it more likely.

Has it occurred to you that some perishable commodities could not have been delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street?

I’m not sure your experience of the subject is particularly relevant.

[MrBarnett]

So you're suggesting that Charles Lechmere stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to murder Stride and Eddowes? That's not impossible, but even with an extra long shift, he could have found a victim five or six hours before Elizabeth Stride was killed.

Yes, he could have found a victim in the late afternoon and killed her in broad daylight. That’s possible.

With your expert knowledge of Lechmere’s shifts, when do you imagine he finished work on Saturday?

[Fiver]

Even if Chapman was killed at a time that is out of sync with the medical evidence and if Lechmere WAs working at that stage, precisely how does that give him an alibi? Would you care to explain that to us, Fiver?

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

[MrBarnett]

Let’s imagine Lechmere’s routine involved the delivery of horse flesh/butchers meat/fish to Harrison, Barber etc/Smithfield/Billingsgate. All these commodities did arrive at Broad Street in the early morning and would be delivered to their consignees in the morning for sale that same day. Lechmere could have made his deliveries, returned his vehicle and horse, and completed his paperwork by lunchtime - an 8/9 hour shift. That would have given him time to return home, have a bit of a kip and then visit his mother etc in the early evening.

[MrBarnett]

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. (Based on Google)

What if Lechmere had only one location to deliver to?

Have you formed an opinion as to what commodity he might have been delivering?

[MrBarnett]

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

It’s odd that you use the word ‘shipping’ to describe road transport.