Framing Charles

[drstrange169]

>>Whoa there!!! You are supporting ... MY take?<<

Yes, it's a good feeling when people agree.

[Fisherman]

Sunday wasn’t a universal day of rest for carmen. However, this case from 1904 suggests that the LNWR (Pickfords acted as their carrier) did not deliver cats meat to consignees on a Sunday.

I hope the clipping is legible - and useful (you need to click on it). It’s from the Biggleswade Chronicle of 29/5/1904.

Of course, London did not come to a standstill on Sundays. Things were reasonably delivered on that day too. All we can say is that carmen did have days off too, and that Sunday will be the best guess we have for what day that was.

We cannot say that Lechmere had a day off on the 30th. We can, for that matter, not even establish that he was in London.

Buyt we CAN say, that the likely thing is that he was in London since he leived there, and we can say that if Lechmere had a day off, that day was likely Sunday, since that was always the working mans classical day off.

That´s as far as it goes, but it is good enough for me since it offers a good explanation to how Stride and Eddowes may have fallen prey to him.

The spots where Stride and Eddowes were killed are also in line with Lechmere not walking to work that day, so it ticks as many boxes as one can possibly bhope to have ticked.

[Fisherman]

>>Whoa there!!! You are supporting ... MY take?<<

Yes, it's a good feeling when people agree.

You do surprise me at times. Then again, most times you don´t.

How do you think we can make the best joint contribution to Ripperology as a team, Dusty? Surely, that must be a shared goal of ours?

[MrBarnett]

Of course, London did not come to a standstill on Sundays. Things were reasonably delivered on that day too. All we can say is that carmen did have days off too, and that Sunday will be the best guess we have for what day that was.

We cannot say that Lechmere had a day off on the 30th. We can, for that matter, not even establish that he was in London.

Buyt we CAN say, that the likely thing is that he was in London since he leived there, and we can say that if Lechmere had a day off, that day was likely Sunday, since that was always the working mans classical day off.

That´s as far as it goes, but it is good enough for me since it offers a good explanation to how Stride and Eddowes may have fallen prey to him.

The spots where Stride and Eddowes were killed are also in line with Lechmere not walking to work that day, so it ticks as many boxes as one can possibly bhope to have ticked.

I’m of the opinion that Lechmere carried cat’s meat on his cart, so the discovery above adds weight to the idea that Sunday was his day off.

Sunday was a normal working day for many, but not, it would seem, for those carrying cat’s meat from LNWR stations.

[Fisherman]

I’m of the opinion that Lechmere carried cat’s meat on his cart, so the discovery above adds weight to the idea that Sunday was his day off.

Sunday was a normal working day for many, but not, it would seem, for those carrying cat’s meat from LNWR stations.

Yes, a normal working day for many - but not for most, right?

Interesting about the cat´s meat. Where is the info from, if you don´t mind?

I´m taking a paus for now, but will return shortly.

[drstrange169]

>>It is proven that Nichols bled for many minutes after Lechmere left the body.<<

Err ... no!

We don't know if she bled or if she leaked at some stage after Lechmere left, that is why we are all here debating.

One minute your saying people should express there opinions as facts and the next you are doing it!

[FrankO]

Hi Frank!

I am as convinced as I have always been that a psychopathic killer may actually choose to stay put at a murder site, Frank.

I hadn't expected anything less from you, Christer! I'm not so far removed from your conviction. It's just that, as long as I don't read or hear about a serial killer who did something similar to what you propose Lechmere did, "just for fun"/"just because he could"/just because he felt to" (take your pick), my view is that he would only have stayed put if he felt he could no longer get away. But I'd agree that we don't know at what point he would have felt that.

I don´t think that we can establish with exactitude what happened in Bucks Row,...

Completely agreed.

...but I think we can look away from whether or not Lechmere would have head Paul from 130 yards or from 100 or 75 or so on.

Going by Neil's evidence, I think we can safely say that it was possible, from the murder spot, to hear someone walking at the end of the street. Whether Paul's footsteps were evenly loud as Thain's, is something we can't know, nor whether Lechmere would have listened for sounds - even though he would have had very good reason to do so. That's all we can say.

If Lechmere was the killer, he used time to cover the wounds of Nichols, time that he could have used to make good his escape, and so the implication is that he actively took the decision to stay put.

If we'd assume that he was her killer, then, of course, this is very true.

Having looked at various psychopaths and how they differ from the rest of us, it is not something that has me baffled in any way. And it does not represent any obstacle at all in my world. I respect that you are of another view, though.

As I respect that you see it differently than I do.

All the best,
Frank

[MrBarnett]

Yes, a normal working day for many - but not for most, right?

Interesting about the cat´s meat. Where is the info from, if you don´t mind?

I´m taking a paus for now, but will return shortly.

I’m not sure I could quantify it. For factory workers, yes; for barmen, policeman and vicars, no. As for carmen, I couldn’t say. It would presumably depend on what they were carrying/for whom they were carrying it.

I’ve read on several occasions that knacker’s yards didn’t operate on Sundays. The report from the Biggleswade paper suggests that carriers moving goods from Broad Street and Camden didn’t operate on a Sunday and furthermore that Broad Street goods station was not fully manned on that day.

It’s the first piece of evidence I’ve seen to suggest that Sunday might indeed have been CAL’s day off.

You should take a ‘paws’ after this.

[Al Bundy's Eyes]

Buyt we CAN say, that the likely thing is that he was in London since he leived there, and we can say that if Lechmere had a day off, that day was likely Sunday, since that was always the working mans classical day off.

That´s as far as it goes, but it is good enough for me since it offers a good explanation to how Stride and Eddowes may have fallen prey to him.

It really doesn't though. It's a mental leap beyond a leap as to why he killed that night, and chose to head to work, when he was off. He visited his mum, murdered two victims, and headed to work, at an abnormal time. It's shoehorning the route to work, at best. His cover, early doors, was his route to work, latterly, it was an old route based on his mother's address. It's tenuous at best.

[Abby Normal]

It really doesn't though. It's a mental leap beyond a leap as to why he killed that night, and chose to head to work, when he was off. He visited his mum, murdered two victims, and headed to work, at an abnormal time. It's shoehorning the route to work, at best. His cover, early doors, was his route to work, latterly, it was an old route based on his mother's address. It's tenuous at best.

hi al
i think the thought is that the double event was earlier than tje other murders because he wasnt headed to work, but did it after visiting his mom. which is why he had time to try again after stride.
and then maybe headed to work or back to his moms as a temp bolthole, before heading out again to drop the apron, write the gsg and then head home.

[Fiver]

Do you know where Charles Lechmere´s mother lived?

Are you aware that Stride was killed on a Saturday night, when Lechmere likely did not work?

Yes and yes as should have been obvious from my previous post.

To get from Stride's murder site to 23 Pinchin Street, you have to walk south on Berner Street past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Street until you reach Ellen Street. Then you walk west to Philip Street, then south past Maryann and Severne Streets to Pinchin Street and then west to 23 Pinchin Street. That is quite a bit more than the "a lame stone´s throw away" that you claimed.

At best, Stride was killed a block off of any of Lechmere's most likely routes to his mother's.

Stride was also killed 2 1/2 hours before Lechmere normally left for work. Nobody gets up 2 & 1/2 to 3 hours early on their day off. If he was the killer, he'd also have to explain to his family why a 25 minute walk to his mother's took 2 & 1/2 hours or more.

[John Wheat]

Yes and yes as should have been obvious from my previous post.

To get from Stride's murder site to 23 Pinchin Street, you have to walk south on Berner Street past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Street until you reach Ellen Street. Then you walk west to Philip Street, then south past Maryann and Severne Streets to Pinchin Street and then west to 23 Pinchin Street. That is quite a bit more than the "a lame stone´s throw away" that you claimed.

At best, Stride was killed a block off of any of Lechmere's most likely routes to his mother's.

Stride was also killed 2 1/2 hours before Lechmere normally left for work. Nobody gets up 2 & 1/2 to 3 hours early on their day off. If he was the killer, he'd also have to explain to his family why a 25 minute walk to his mother's took 2 & 1/2 hours or more.

I agree with all that Fiver. The title is apt Framing Charles. Some crackpots are trying to frame a clearly innocent man.

[MrBarnett]

I agree with all that Fiver.

Oh, that’s good. Perhaps you can explain this bit to me:

“If he was the killer, he'd also have to explain to his family why a 25 minute walk to his mother's took 2 & 1/2 hours or more.”

And perhaps you can also explain the relevance of 23, Pinchin Street.

Thanks.

[John Wheat]

Oh, that’s good. Perhaps you can explain this bit to me:

“If he was the killer, he'd also have to explain to his family why a 25 minute walk to his mother's took 2 & 1/2 hours or more.”

And perhaps you can also explain the relevance of 23, Pinchin Street.

Thanks.

It was Fiver's original post so I'll let him explain it.

[MrBarnett]

It was Fiver's original post so I'll let him explain it.

OK.

But you understand it and agree with it?