Framing Charles

[drstrange169]

>>You have this backwards. Lechmere suggested "they should give her a prop". Paul refused.<<

One paper reported this, all the others had it the other way around.

[Abby Normal]

>>(Richardson) no one at the time thought he might need a good looking at?<<

I've always understood that he came under a lot of scrutiny at the time.

only by the coroner who caught him out on the knife issue, basically catching him in a lie. he even said the knife richardson presented as not being sharp enough to cut leather. which richardson then admitted, and had to go get the other knife.
but after all this... nothing. very strange.

[Kattrup]

only by the coroner who caught him out on the knife issue, basically catching him in a lie. he even said the knife richardson presented as not being sharp enough to cut leather. which richardson then admitted, and had to go get the other knife.
but after all this... nothing. very strange.

Drstrange is correct, Abby:
”If the evidence of Dr. Philips is correct as to time of death, it is difficult to understand how it was that Richardson did not see the body when he went into the yard at 4.45 a.m. but as his clothes were examined, the house searched and his statement taken in which there was not a shred of evidence, suspicion could not rest on him, although police specially directed their attention to him.” Swanson, 19th oct. [my bolding]

[Abby Normal]

Drstrange is correct, Abby:
”If the evidence of Dr. Philips is correct as to time of death, it is difficult to understand how it was that Richardson did not see the body when he went into the yard at 4.45 a.m. but as his clothes were examined, the house searched and his statement taken in which there was not a shred of evidence, suspicion could not rest on him, although police specially directed their attention to him.” Swanson, 19th oct. [my bolding]

thanks kat i stand corrected
tje coroner seems to have strangely dropped it after the discrepency about the knife though.

[Fiver]

>>You have this backwards. Lechmere suggested "they should give her a prop". Paul refused.<<

One paper reported this, all the others had it the other way around.

Thank you for the correction. A more thorough, which I should have done earlier, shows the Daily Telegraph and Lloyds Weekly News said that Lechmere made the suggestion, while ten other papers say that Paul made the suggestion. The two accounts also incorrectly say "Just then they heard a policeman coming." and it seems likely the Lloyds account is copied from the Telegraph.

[FrankO]

I am not saying that he did not think he would be able to get away by legging it out of Bucks Row. I am not even suggesting that he didn´t think he would be able to calmly walk away. I cannot decide for him in retrospect how he would reason. I keep pressing the point that we will be dealing with a psychopath here, and they do not think, panic, weigh risks and such things they way you and me do. "I guess I could get out of here, but hey, let´s wait and see what happens" is something that would be very much in line with how they think, and so I won´t make any calls for him. If he was the killer, he chose to stay, and to what degree it was governed by rational thinking (the way we define it) is impossible to say.

For a while I thought to leave your post without reply, but I’ve changed my mind.

On the whole, I completely understand your reply above, Christer. It’s a perfect reflection of your stance. The coincidences convince you that Lechmere was the culprit and, therefore, he must have stayed to wait for Paul. And this could happen because Lechmere was a psychopath, who (very well may have) preferred the challenge of fooling Paul & who or whatever came along further down the line instead of getting out of there, even though he guessed he could have managed to do so.

Now, I have no doubt that you’ve never actually said Lechmere didn’t think he would be able to leg it out of Buck’s Row and even less that you’ve never suggested that he didn’t think he would be able to calmly walk away. However, even up to a few of your posts back, you’ve always suggested that there would be a very good chance that, if he would have run away, he would have run into the arms of a PC, implying that this was a/the reason for him staying put. In fact, you’ve always given me the impression that the reason for this is that you thought Paul would sort of be upon the body & have raised the alarm within many seconds of Lechmere getting away. So, to now insinuate that he guessed he could make it out of there and, at the same time, say that you won’t make any calls for him is a bit odd or a bit of a surprise, to say the least.

And then, I know psychopath serial killers don’t think or act like you & I would do, but I still see no reason to believe they would act like you suggest above in a situation similar to Lechmere’s, i.e. he guessed he could get out of there but chose not to. I haven’t been able to find them, but if you have any examples of serial killers acting along this, then I’d change my stance. I’d expect something other than the example of Dahmer, though, because there’s the very real possibility that he only came out of the woodwork in the tragic case of Konerak Sinthasomphone because not doing so would have brought the police to his door.

Now that I have replied, carry on…

[Fiver]

Leave the Pinchin Street torso exactly where it was left.

The Torso Killer scattered body parts across over 20 miles along the river Thames. Why would a killer who routinely traveled eight to ten miles to dispose of victims give up and dump one a block from his mother's house.

[Fiver]

they do?
whats his link to pinchin? what victims does his route to his work take him near?

was paul seen standing alone with a freshly killed victim?

If Fisherman can pick and chose his victim list based on how close they live to possible routes the suspect could have taken, then so can I.

Pinchin Street can be ignored - it wasn't a Ripper killing.

Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman are just as close to Paul's route to work.

Kelly is closer to Paul's workplace than Lechemere's

In 1879, Paul was living at 108 North Street. Eddowes killing took place barely off of likely route Paul could have taken to work.

And Stride may not have been a Ripper killing. Alternatively, if I track down everywhere Paul's immediate relatives lived or used to live, I can probably find one who lived several blocks away from the Stride killing.

[MrBarnett]

The Torso Killer scattered body parts across over 20 miles along the river Thames. Why would a killer who routinely traveled eight to ten miles to dispose of victims give up and dump one a block from his mother's house.

But this time the torso killer didn’t dump the body in or particularly close to the Thames. This time the torso killer dumped a hybrid torso/ripper body in an archway between the street where young Charles ‘Cross’ had lived as a child and Frederick Street - ‘Tiger Bay’ - a notorious street that had once been full of brothels, whose inhabitants his PC stepfather had to deal with and who his mother had doubtless warned him about. Almost in Whitechapel, but not quite, just inside STGITE.

Name me somewhere else that might have carried such significance for Lechmere as the Ripper/Torso killer.

[MrBarnett]

If Fisherman can pick and chose his victim list based on how close they live to possible routes the suspect could have taken, then so can I.

Pinchin Street can be ignored - it wasn't a Ripper killing.

Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman are just as close to Paul's route to work.

Kelly is closer to Paul's workplace than Lechemere's

In 1879, Paul was living at 108 North Street. Eddowes killing took place barely off of likely route Paul could have taken to work.

And Stride may not have been a Ripper killing. Alternatively, if I track down everywhere Paul's immediate relatives lived or used to live, I can probably find one who lived several blocks away from the Stride killing.

Put your money where your mouth is. Find us an immediate family member of Paul’s who lived close to Berner Street.

(This should be interesting.)

[MrBarnett]

If Fisherman can pick and chose his victim list based on how close they live to possible routes the suspect could have taken, then so can I.

Pinchin Street can be ignored - it wasn't a Ripper killing.

Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman are just as close to Paul's route to work.

Kelly is closer to Paul's workplace than Lechemere's

In 1879, Paul was living at 108 North Street. Eddowes killing took place barely off of likely route Paul could have taken to work.

And Stride may not have been a Ripper killing. Alternatively, if I track down everywhere Paul's immediate relatives lived or used to live, I can probably find one who lived several blocks away from the Stride killing.

George Yard was as close to Paul’s route as it was to the route Lechmere took on 31/8, but Lechmere could have taken another route to work which would have had him travelling via Old Montague/Wentworth Street and passing the top of George Yard.

A few days ago you were claiming that Lechmere never lived in Pinchin Street.

Why don’t you spend a bit of time studying the case and come back to the boards when you know what you’re talking about.

[Abby Normal]

For a while I thought to leave your post without reply, but I’ve changed my mind.

On the whole, I completely understand your reply above, Christer. It’s a perfect reflection of your stance. The coincidences convince you that Lechmere was the culprit and, therefore, he must have stayed to wait for Paul. And this could happen because Lechmere was a psychopath, who (very well may have) preferred the challenge of fooling Paul & who or whatever came along further down the line instead of getting out of there, even though he guessed he could have managed to do so.

Now, I have no doubt that you’ve never actually said Lechmere didn’t think he would be able to leg it out of Buck’s Row and even less that you’ve never suggested that he didn’t think he would be able to calmly walk away. However, even up to a few of your posts back, you’ve always suggested that there would be a very good chance that, if he would have run away, he would have run into the arms of a PC, implying that this was a/the reason for him staying put. In fact, you’ve always given me the impression that the reason for this is that you thought Paul would sort of be upon the body & have raised the alarm within many seconds of Lechmere getting away. So, to now insinuate that he guessed he could make it out of there and, at the same time, say that you won’t make any calls for him is a bit odd or a bit of a surprise, to say the least.

And then, I know psychopath serial killers don’t think or act like you & I would do, but I still see no reason to believe they would act like you suggest above in a situation similar to Lechmere’s, i.e. he guessed he could get out of there but chose not to. I haven’t been able to find them, but if you have any examples of serial killers acting along this, then I’d change my stance. I’d expect something other than the example of Dahmer, though, because there’s the very real possibility that he only came out of the woodwork in the tragic case of Konerak Sinthasomphone because not doing so would have brought the police to his door.

Now that I have replied, carry on…

hi frank
its really much simpler than all that really. lech could felt surprised and kind of trapped when he heard paul arrive, and or froze for a second, before simply staying there and acting like he was an innocent bystander as well. ive seen it happen.

and re dahmer.. the poor kid was unfortunately very incoherent and could barely talk to the cops,let alone remember where dahmer lived, and dahmer could habe just stayed away, yet he didnt flee the situation also.

[Abby Normal]

If Fisherman can pick and chose his victim list based on how close they live to possible routes the suspect could have taken, then so can I.

Pinchin Street can be ignored - it wasn't a Ripper killing.

Tabram, Nichols, and Chapman are just as close to Paul's route to work.

Kelly is closer to Paul's workplace than Lechemere's

In 1879, Paul was living at 108 North Street. Eddowes killing took place barely off of likely route Paul could have taken to work.

And Stride may not have been a Ripper killing. Alternatively, if I track down everywhere Paul's immediate relatives lived or used to live, I can probably find one who lived several blocks away from the Stride killing.

pinchin street may very well have been a ripper killing, there are many similarities. so i stopped reading there.

[Astatine211]

Unless some new information gets discovered or revealed in the near future, I'm certain there's a connection between Jack and the Thames Torso Murders. I'm unsure what the connection is specifically, but the nature of the Pinchin Street and Whitehall Torso proves to me they're of relevance to the JtR case. After reading some more in depth newspaper analysis of the torso murders, what I can say is the killer wanted the body parts to be found, the were placed in predetermined locations where they would most certainly be found. The route the murdered had to take to place the Whitehall Torso in the Scotland Yard construction site vault without detection was extremely complicated and they had to scale many walls.

What stood out to me was that police were certain the Whitehall Torso was moved via the work of two people due to the height of the walls that had to be climbed. What this shows is that the Thames Torso Murderer had an accomplice.

John Cleary / John Arnold who predicted the Pinchin Street Torso three days before the murder specified the murder would be by Jack the Ripper. Now if he got this information by overhearing two people discussing it this would further suggest the Torso Murders were carried out by two people. Another coincidence I want to add to this is the site of the Pinchin Street Torso and the Lipski graffiti above it links directly with the once instance which was the only suggestion of JtR having an accomplice, the Schwartz story which involves two people.

If we could know the truth of this case, it would not surprise me if Jack was part of a duo partnership which was the Thames Torso Murderer and committed the other crimes by himself with the other person maybe acting as the occasional lookout. It would not surprise me if the accomplice was an older person who acted as a mentor somewhat to Jack.

Now since this is a thread about Lechmere and not the TTM I would like to say in my opinion, out of all the likely suspects, which to me includes Lechmere, he would probably be the suspect most likely to have an accomplice due to the fact he was obviously sane enough to live a normal life for 32 years after the murders (which funnily enough is also my biggest issue with him being JtR, if he had died in 1891 or 1892 he would most likely be my top suspect). What I would suggest is looking into Lechmere's connections with the police. His father in law was a police constable and Lechmere's use of the Cross name could be to signal this relation. Especially since Detective inspector Reid did stress that the Hanbury Street murder took place at the exact same time as the changing of police which is how Jack avoided detection, suggesting insider knowledge.

[drstrange169]

>> Frederick Street - ‘Tiger Bay’ - a notorious street that had once been full of brothels <<

Giving many thousands of people a possible reason to dump a body there, I would have thought. I haven't checked, but wasn't it also around where the Lipksi graffiti was?