Framing Charles

[rjpalmer]

hi fiver
whos theory? yours and rjs? its a ludicrous idea.

Hello Abby - I assure you that I have no theory whatsoever that touches on what the carman Charles Lechmere may or may not have been doing on the night of the 'double event.' As I say, he has no provable alibi, but then neither does the majority of 'suspects' named over the years.

I was just voicing skepticism at the claim that the murders of Stride and Eddowes being earlier in the evening 'fit nicely' with Lechmere having Sunday off. It seems like a weak indicator, at best, and, indeed, I can't even quite follow the reasoning.

I suppose what is being suggested is that, since Lechmere would have the opportunity to sleep in, and it was Saturday night, he could have stayed out visiting and boozing until 2 a.m. in the morning.

Maybe so, maybe not--we might as well argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It could just as easily have been Cutbush or Druitt or Bury or Kosminski out on a spree.

I am more interested in the supposed 3-3.30 a.m. pattern in the murders of Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, and Kelly that Fish is seeing, that would indicate a man traversing the murder zone within a very narrow window of time.

But does such a pattern even exist? In at least two of those cases, and possibly in three, the time of death is far from certain. And how compelling is that pattern, if the same theorist is forced to admit murders also occurred two hours earlier, and one body--supposedly in the same series--was dumped two hours later?

It doesn't make it impossible that the same man was guilty of committing all seven murders, but it clearly weakens the supposed pattern that was pointing at him in the first place.

I don't think that is a particularly controversial position, is it?

Unlike 'Fiver,' I don't dispute that the Stride murder occurring close to Ma Lechmere's house is a 'fun fact.' If one believes, as Fish believes, that the Stride murder and the Pinchin Street case are connected to the Nichols murder, I can see why it would excite his interest. But isn't the geographical coincidence enough? Do we have to also pretend, as the 'Missing Evidence' documentary does, that the fuzzy and uncertain 'timing' of the murders is also suggestive?


R P

[Abby Normal]

So you're suggesting that Charles Lechmere stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to murder Stride and Eddowes? That's not impossible, but even with an extra long shift, he could have found a victim five or six hours before Elizabeth Stride was killed.

you have heard of adreniline? or maybe he took a nap at moms.
he could have found a victim five or six hours before stride? really? like shooting fish in the barrel then?

[Abby Normal]

Exactly. The theory requires Lechmere to leave the house at least 3 hours earlier than he normally would. Make that 4 if, as some theorize, Lechmere visited his mother before going on to commit the double event and visit Goulston Street.

hi fiver
whos theory? yours and rjs? its a ludicrous idea. as ive said numerous times the most likely scenario would be lech visiting his mom after work on saturday and then heading out on the hunt after that.

[MrBarnett]

Was there anything unclear or incorrect in what I said?



The enthusiasm you've shown in going after anyone who disagreed with Fisherman's theory gave me the impression you agreed with Fisherman on all points. I haven't seen that enthusiasm directed towards the weak points in Fisherman's theory.



They certainly would have been on a timeclock with perishables. The example I gave mentioned "an open basket of Welsh mutton", which clearly was shipped to London from Wales without benefit of refrigeration. Of course, I did not claim that perishables were delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street. I'd expect perishables to be delivered first. But most of Pickford's business was not perishables - the example I linked included "chairs, fenders, barrels, looking-glasses, pottery". Some of those are fragile, but none are perishable.

So, you’ve no idea whether Lechmere was delivering perishables to a single receiver or non-perishables to multiple receivers? Can you hazard a guess at what commodity Lechmere might have been delivering? Are there any clues in his and his family’s later life?

What kind of goods do you think would more likeky require a driver to be at work by 4am? Perishable goods in bulk to wholesale markets or parcels to multiple receivers?

[Fiver]

You have information about Charles Lechmere’s work at Pickfords? Really???

Please enlighten us.

Was there anything unclear or incorrect in what I said?

Where do you get the idea that I have uncritically accepted that Lechmere had Sundays off? The fact is that I’ve argued against that assumption for years, but have recently found evidence that makes it more likely.

The enthusiasm you've shown in going after anyone who disagreed with Fisherman's theory gave me the impression you agreed with Fisherman on all points. I haven't seen that enthusiasm directed towards the weak points in Fisherman's theory.

Has it occurred to you that some perishable commodities could not have been delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street?

They certainly would have been on a timeclock with perishables. The example I gave mentioned "an open basket of Welsh mutton", which clearly was shipped to London from Wales without benefit of refrigeration. Of course, I did not claim that perishables were delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street. I'd expect perishables to be delivered first. But most of Pickford's business was not perishables - the example I linked included "chairs, fenders, barrels, looking-glasses, pottery". Some of those are fragile, but none are perishable.

[MrBarnett]

All this nonsense about ‘book carriers’ is in relation to Pickfords’ parcel delivery business in the 1860s.

Fiver obviously believes, like many others, that Google is a modern day Oracle.

What a waste of everybody’s time.

[MrBarnett]

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

It’s odd that you use the word ‘shipping’ to describe road transport.

[MrBarnett]

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

Assumptions, assumptions, assumptions. (Based on Google)

What if Lechmere had only one location to deliver to?

Have you formed an opinion as to what commodity he might have been delivering?

[MrBarnett]

Let’s imagine Lechmere’s routine involved the delivery of horse flesh/butchers meat/fish to Harrison, Barber etc/Smithfield/Billingsgate. All these commodities did arrive at Broad Street in the early morning and would be delivered to their consignees in the morning for sale that same day. Lechmere could have made his deliveries, returned his vehicle and horse, and completed his paperwork by lunchtime - an 8/9 hour shift. That would have given him time to return home, have a bit of a kip and then visit his mother etc in the early evening.

[Fiver]

Even if Chapman was killed at a time that is out of sync with the medical evidence and if Lechmere WAs working at that stage, precisely how does that give him an alibi? Would you care to explain that to us, Fiver?

Apparently you know nothing about the shipping business, which believes that every minute counts. Drivers are given a list of deliveries and they don't build slack into that list. A Pickford's driver would be seen at every delivery point and his deliveries would be signed for at each location. It would be virtually impossible to find a space 15 to 20 minutes to wander off, leaving the van unattended. That's before we consider that a carman for Pickford's would typically be accompanied by a book-carrier, who "acts as conductor and delivers the goods" and who at the end of the day "gives a detailed and statistical account of his transactions during the day". If there was no book-carrier, the carman would have to keep and deliver this detailed account. Being 15 to 20 minutes late for any of these deliveries would be noticed by Lechmere's superiors and lead to a reprimand or worse without a very good explanation.

[MrBarnett]

So you're suggesting that Charles Lechmere stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to murder Stride and Eddowes? That's not impossible, but even with an extra long shift, he could have found a victim five or six hours before Elizabeth Stride was killed.

Yes, he could have found a victim in the late afternoon and killed her in broad daylight. That’s possible.

With your expert knowledge of Lechmere’s shifts, when do you imagine he finished work on Saturday?

[MrBarnett]

Fisherman doesn't know what Lechmere's shift patterns were, either. Yet you uncritically accept his claims that Lechmere had Sundays off and worked variable shifts.

I do have some knowledge of shipping/receiving, as well as information about period technology and Charles Lechmere's work at Pickfords. So while I do not know for certain, I can make some educated guesses.

Shifts in shipping would have standardized starting times. They normally do today and few if any carmen would have telephones, so management would not be able to call and reschedule. Variable shifts make it harder for management to plan schedules. They're even harder on the workers and even Ebenezer Scrooge might be smart enough to realize variable shifts results in sleep-deprived workers who are more likely to make mistakes in deliveries or get in accidents, neither of which help the company. Charles Lechmere worked at the Broad Street Station, where Pickfords would be receiving shipments that arrived on regularly scheduled trains. Charles Lechford had a fair amount of seniority, with over twenty years of experience at Pickford's.

Unless someone can provide evidence that Pickfords used variable shifts, the most logical assumption is that Pickfords would have used standard starting times for shifts. After over 20 years, Lechmere would have found the shift that was the best, or perhaps least bad, shift for him and would be unlikely to change it. Lechmere also probably got Sundays off, due to seniority, and would be unlikely to change it.

Workers sometimes trade shifts, but it does not happen often. Far more likely is for workers with the same shift to trade days off.

A carman killing on the way to work has very little slack time and no excuse for showing up to work with fresh bloodstains on his clothing. If Charles Lechmere was the Ripper we'd expect all of the killings to be between 3:30am and 3:45am on work days and 3:30am or later on his days off. That makes it wildly unlikely that Charles Lechmere killed Chapman, Stride, Eddowes. or the Pinchin Street Torso.

The variable part of shipping/receiving is when a shift is finished, which can change significantly based on how much needed to be delivered and how well the delivery list was organized. Starting work at 4am means Charles Lechmere would probably finish his deliveries 8 to 10 hours later, though an unusually slow day might take only 6 hours and an unusually busy one might take 11 hours. Mrs Lechmere would not expect her husband to be home at the same time twice in a row and arriving home as early as 11am or as late as 4pm would be possible. A killer carman would have hours of slack after work, not the 10 or 15 minutes squeezed into his trip to work. Plus fresh blood stains could be explained as being unlucky enough to get stuck transporting improperly wrapped meat.

If we're looking for a killer carman to pin the Ripper crimes on, we should look for one who started work at 4pm, not 4am.

You have information about Charles Lechmere’s work at Pickfords? Really???

Please enlighten us.

Where do you get the idea that I have uncritically accepted that Lechmere had Sundays off? The fact is that I’ve argued against that assumption for years, but have recently found evidence that makes it more likely.

Has it occurred to you that some perishable commodities could not have been delivered 10 hours after they arrived at Broad Street?

I’m not sure your experience of the subject is particularly relevant.

[Fiver]

There can be no certainty at all concerning these matters. What there CAN be a certainty about is that on the day after the Pinchin Street torso was found, a bloody apron was discovered at the building site of St Philips Church. And St Phillips Church is situated exactly on a direct line drawn from Pinchin Street up to 22 Doveton Street, where Charles Lechmere lived. That, and that only is what I am saying - it would be an almighty coincidence if these geographical implications were NOT due to how Lechmere was the killer. There are scores of things beforehand that point to him (unless they are nothing but a tremendous heap of more coincidences) and so the apron at St Philips is either a completely logical matter or a breathtaking coincidence.

You donīt have to like it, but you need to learn to live with it.

You still appear to not understand what the word "coincidence" means. You chose the Pinchin Street torso while ignoring all the other Torso victims. You chose a Torso Killer victim without providing any evidence to show that they were also the Ripper. You chose to ignore the bloody rag found west of Pinchin street and on the same day. You chose to draw a line to the a bloody apron was discovered at the building site of St Philips Church the day after the Pinchin Street Torso was found. You chose to ignore that there is no evidence that the apron had any connection to the Torso killings. You chose to start your line from Pinchin Street, not from St Philips Church. You chose to ignore that the building site of St Philips Church covered an entire block, not a single point. You chose a single point on that line, ignoring dozens of other houses on that line. You chose to ignore that you don't have a line starting from Pinchin Street, you have a conethat "points" towards dozens of blocks and hundreds of houses. Your line points to Charles Lechmere because you chose to ignore all the lines that don't point to him.

[Fiver]

Of course it does, Abbey. Or maybe he goes home first to freshen up and then goes to see his mum, daughter, step-father in the early evening.

And let’s not forget that area of St George’s is where he had spent most of his life - 30 years or so. His friends and old neighbours were there, the pubs, shops etc he was familiar with. According to the electoral register, his mother etc were living 1, Mary Ann Street in 1888. Ellen Street ran across the bottom of Berners Street and Mary Ann Street was immediately behind that. ‘A stone’s throw’ is not meant to be taken literally, it means a short distance away. Mary Ann Street was a short distance from Berners Street - a few minutes walk away.

So you're suggesting that Charles Lechmere stayed up for 23 hours straight in order to murder Stride and Eddowes? That's not impossible, but even with an extra long shift, he could have found a victim five or six hours before Elizabeth Stride was killed.

[Fiver]

You have no idea what Lechmere's shift patterns were.

Fisherman doesn't know what Lechmere's shift patterns were, either. Yet you uncritically accept his claims that Lechmere had Sundays off and worked variable shifts.

I do have some knowledge of shipping/receiving, as well as information about period technology and Charles Lechmere's work at Pickfords. So while I do not know for certain, I can make some educated guesses.

Shifts in shipping would have standardized starting times. They normally do today and few if any carmen would have telephones, so management would not be able to call and reschedule. Variable shifts make it harder for management to plan schedules. They're even harder on the workers and even Ebenezer Scrooge might be smart enough to realize variable shifts results in sleep-deprived workers who are more likely to make mistakes in deliveries or get in accidents, neither of which help the company. Charles Lechmere worked at the Broad Street Station, where Pickfords would be receiving shipments that arrived on regularly scheduled trains. Charles Lechford had a fair amount of seniority, with over twenty years of experience at Pickford's.

Unless someone can provide evidence that Pickfords used variable shifts, the most logical assumption is that Pickfords would have used standard starting times for shifts. After over 20 years, Lechmere would have found the shift that was the best, or perhaps least bad, shift for him and would be unlikely to change it. Lechmere also probably got Sundays off, due to seniority, and would be unlikely to change it.

Workers sometimes trade shifts, but it does not happen often. Far more likely is for workers with the same shift to trade days off.

A carman killing on the way to work has very little slack time and no excuse for showing up to work with fresh bloodstains on his clothing. If Charles Lechmere was the Ripper we'd expect all of the killings to be between 3:30am and 3:45am on work days and 3:30am or later on his days off. That makes it wildly unlikely that Charles Lechmere killed Chapman, Stride, Eddowes. or the Pinchin Street Torso.

The variable part of shipping/receiving is when a shift is finished, which can change significantly based on how much needed to be delivered and how well the delivery list was organized. Starting work at 4am means Charles Lechmere would probably finish his deliveries 8 to 10 hours later, though an unusually slow day might take only 6 hours and an unusually busy one might take 11 hours. Mrs Lechmere would not expect her husband to be home at the same time twice in a row and arriving home as early as 11am or as late as 4pm would be possible. A killer carman would have hours of slack after work, not the 10 or 15 minutes squeezed into his trip to work. Plus fresh blood stains could be explained as being unlucky enough to get stuck transporting improperly wrapped meat.

If we're looking for a killer carman to pin the Ripper crimes on, we should look for one who started work at 4pm, not 4am.