Framing Charles

[Fisherman]

I’m not sure I could quantify it. For factory workers, yes; for barmen, policeman and vicars, no. As for carmen, I couldn’t say. It would presumably depend on what they were carrying/for whom they were carrying it.

I’ve read on several occasions that knacker’s yards didn’t operate on Sundays. The report from the Biggleswade paper suggests that carriers moving goods from Broad Street and Camden didn’t operate on a Sunday and furthermore that Broad Street goods station was not fully manned on that day.

It’s the first piece of evidence I’ve seen to suggest that Sunday might indeed have been CAL’s day off.

You should take a ‘paws’ after this.

Even today, in our secularized western world, the commonest day off for workers is Sunday. Back then, religion would have had a much larger influence, and religion stipulates that Sunday is a day of rest. Just as you say, it is hard to quantify, but I do think we can be very certain that Sunday was the working mans day off, broadly speaking.

In our case, we have a single individual to look at, and so of course his own schedule is what counts before any quantified reasoning. In that vein, thanks for expanding on why you think that Sunday was likely a day off for Lechmere.

[Fisherman]

I hadn't expected anything less from you, Christer! I'm not so far removed from your conviction. It's just that, as long as I don't read or hear about a serial killer who did something similar to what you propose Lechmere did, "just for fun"/"just because he could"/just because he felt to" (take your pick), my view is that he would only have stayed put if he felt he could no longer get away. But I'd agree that we don't know at what point he would have felt that.

Completely agreed.

Going by Neil's evidence, I think we can safely say that it was possible, from the murder spot, to hear someone walking at the end of the street. Whether Paul's footsteps were evenly loud as Thain's, is something we can't know, nor whether Lechmere would have listened for sounds - even though he would have had very good reason to do so. That's all we can say.

Not really. I think it must be added that Lechmere may have been in a "bubble" that made him hear Paul later than he otherwise would have. Of cpurse, it is only a "may", but I think it is important to add the option as such.

If we'd assume that he was her killer, then, of course, this is very true.

As I respect that you see it differently than I do.

All the best,
Frank

All the best to you too, Frank!

[Fisherman]

>>It is proven that Nichols bled for many minutes after Lechmere left the body.<<

Err ... no!

We don't know if she bled or if she leaked at some stage after Lechmere left, that is why we are all here debating.

One minute your saying people should express there opinions as facts and the next you are doing it!

Neil said that the blood was running from her neck wound and Neil was not in place until many minutes after the carmen left. Mizen said the same. Of course, if they were both mistaken, then she was perhaps not bleeding. But all in all, the evidence there is tells us that she WAS bleeding and so we may safely treat that as a fact.There is not a single source that has either man claiming that she had stopped bleeding, on the contrary.

This is one of those things where I personally think that your zeal to try and deny anything that points to Lechmere becomes counterproductive for you.

You forgot a "not" in your last sentence, by the way. I am not saying that it is a fact that it is a Freudian mistake - but I am saying that it is kind of amusing.

[Abby Normal]

Perhaps Fiver doesn't, but one of the main arguments presented in the Lechmere documentary is that the murders coincided with Lechmere's 'shift patterns.'

"his job potentially placed him near four of the killings at the time they occurred" --Jack the Ripper: The Missing Evidence (42:22)

and, a few moments later...

"the timings really hurt him" -- J. Scobie, QC.

It kind of seems like 'dirty pool' to use a supposed time table to implicate Lechmere in four of the murders, and then deny that there was any such time table when someone uses the same table to suggest an alibi.

Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm going to assume that Pickford & Co. didn't have rotating shifts--which seems like a safe bet-- and Lechmere left for work at 3.30 a.m. with an arrival time of 4.00 a.m.

Don't the Lechmere theorists themselves accept this?

hi rj
well i wouldt call myself a lechmere theorist, maybe more of a lechmere apologist lol. but yes i agree with your point for the most part.
so four of them tod could be when hes on his way to work and the double event was when he was off the next sunday morning and so ocurred after his work day saturday with no worry about time.

[rjpalmer]

You have no idea what Lechmere’s shift patterns were.

Perhaps Fiver doesn't, but one of the main arguments presented in the Lechmere documentary is that the murders coincided with Lechmere's 'shift patterns.'

"his job potentially placed him near four of the killings at the time they occurred" --Jack the Ripper: The Missing Evidence (42:22)

and, a few moments later...

"the timings really hurt him" -- J. Scobie, QC.

It kind of seems like 'dirty pool' to use a supposed time table to implicate Lechmere in four of the murders, and then deny that there was any such time table when someone uses the same table to suggest an alibi.

Unless someone can demonstrate otherwise, I'm going to assume that Pickford & Co. didn't have rotating shifts--which seems like a safe bet-- and Lechmere left for work at 3.30 a.m. with an arrival time of 4.00 a.m.

Don't the Lechmere theorists themselves accept this?

[drstrange169]

>>Who’s Ma C? Is this a new addition to the ‘cast of thousands?’ ;-)<<

Her neighbours would have known her as Tommy Cross's widow. Particularly the one that witnessed his death certificate.

[drstrange169]

>>Or maybe he goes home first to freshen up and then goes to see his mum, daughter, step-father in the early evening.<<

But a mother wouldn't be interested in seeing her daughter?

[MrBarnett]

hi fiver to my way of thinking, lech goes to his mums after work on saturday then heads out hunting after that.
dosnt that make more sense?

Of course it does, Abbey. Or maybe he goes home first to freshen up and then goes to see his mum, daughter, step-father in the early evening.

And let’s not forget that area of St George’s is where he had spent most of his life - 30 years or so. His friends and old neighbours were there, the pubs, shops etc he was familiar with. According to the electoral register, his mother etc were living 1, Mary Ann Street in 1888. Ellen Street ran across the bottom of Berners Street and Mary Ann Street was immediately behind that. ‘A stone’s throw’ is not meant to be taken literally, it means a short distance away. Mary Ann Street was a short distance from Berners Street - a few minutes walk away.

[Abby Normal]

To get from Stride's murder site to 23 Pinchin Street, you have to walk south on Berner Street past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Streets until you reach Ellen Street. Then you walk west to Philip Street, then south past Maryann and Severne Streets to Pinchin Street and then west to 23 Pinchin Street.

That is not a short distance on foot. That is quite a bit more than the "a lame stone´s throw away" that Fisherman claimed.

While it is true that Charles Lechemere could have taken Berner Street to get to his mother's it is not a likely choice as it angles against him. Christian Street south to Pinchin and then west to Pinchin Street would be shorter. So would Christian south to Ellen Street, Ellen west to Stutfield Street, Stutfield south to Pinchin, and then west to 23 Pinchin. Or several other routes.

So far no evidence had been provided that Lechmere visited his mother at 2am on that day, let alone that he went there by way of Berner Street.



This did not happen in the evening. Charles Lechmere normally left for work around 3:20 to 3:30am. To reach Berner Street in time to murder Elizabeth Stride, Charles Lechmere would have had to have left home at about 12:20 am, maybe earlier. Getting up three hours early on your day off is extremely odd behavior. If Lechmere had left home at 12:20am and walked directly to his mother's, he would have reached there at 12:45 to 12:50am. Nobody goes to visit their mother at that time of night unless it's an emergency and every minute late would be noted by his mother.

But if Lechmere was the Ripper, he would be a lot more than a couple minutes late. Catherine Eddowes was murdered around 1:40 am in Mitre Square. Getting from Mitre Square to Goulston Street to drop the apron and then from Goulston Street to 23 Pinchin Street would take 20 to 25 minutes, getting Lechmere to his mother's at 2am at the very earliest, roughly an hour-and-a-half late. Any mother who actually wanted to see her son at that ungodly hour of the morning would have been worried frantic. Lechmere would have to come up with a very good explanation for the massive delay, especially since during his delay two more women were butchered by the Ripper.

And we're supposed to believe that Charles Lechmere was a iceblooded, calculating psychopath that, when interrupted after killing Polly Nichols, he bluffed his way past Robert Paul and Constable Mizen, and go directly to work to avoid suspicion. Yet we're also expected to believe that when interrupted killing Elizabeth Stride, Lechmere was so compelled to kill again that he would spend an hour or more killing another person, dropping an apron in Goulston Street, and arrive at his destination an hour-and-a-half late with no reasonable excuse for the delay.

hi fiver to my way of thinking, lech goes to his mums after work on saturday then heads out hunting after that.
dosnt that make more sense?

[Fiver]

Correction: I am the one claiming that a bloodied apron was found at St Phillips church the day after the body was found in Pinchin Street, and I am also the one claiming that if we draw a line from the dumping site through St Phillips church, we end up at the doorstep of Charles Lechmere.

That is what I claim.

So you start your line with the Pinchin Street Torso, who was not a Ripper victim and who was deposited at a time Charles Lechmere could not have done it since he was at work. You then try to play connect-the-dots with the apron left at the construction site of St Phillips church, even though there is no evidence that apron had anything to do with the Pinchin Street Torso. You then ignore that St Phillips church is not a point on the map, it covers an entire block.

You would not have a line, you would have a cone. A line drawn through northwest corner of that block does pass near Lechmere's home. A line drawn through northwest corner of that block misses Lechmere's home by several blocks. And St Phillips church was well less than halfway to Lechmere's home.

I also claim that it would be a (further) monumental coincidence if this was all a total coincidence; if the apron was unconnected to the dumping and if the line cut through the arch/St Phillips/Lechmeres home with no connection to the cases whatsoever.

You are the one accepting that this was all a fluke. As was the placing of the other apron in Goulston Street, also corresponding with where Lechmere lived.

It is not a fluke or a coincidence., it is you deliberately targeting Charles Lechmere.

All you have proved is that you will pick points on the map that you can point towards Charles Lechmere, even though that requires using points that have nothing to do with each other and nothing to do with the Ripper killings, while ignoring all the other lines that can be drawn from the Pinchin Street Torso to St Phillips church.

If Charles Lechmere had a compulsion worse than any Batman villain to drop bloody aprons between his killing site and his home, where are are the aprons for Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, and Kelly?

As was how Lechmere happened to stumble on Nichols when she was still bleeding. As was how he declined to help prop her up. As was how her wounds were covered. As was how Lechmere disagreed with the police. As was how a Torso body was dumped in Lechmere´s old home street. As was how Paul never saw Lechmere in front of himself. As was how victims in both series had their abdominal walls removed. And so on and so on and so on.

Coincidences. All of them. Each and every one.

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” -Inigo Montoya,

None of those are coincidences.

Neither Lechmere nor Paul noticed that Nicols was bleeding. PC Neil stumbled on Nichols while she was still bleeding and if blood stops flowing as fast as you claim that makes Neil a better suspect than Lechmere. Diemschutz stumbled on Stride while she was still bleeding. PC Watkin stumbled on Eddowes while she was still bleeding.

Lechmere did decline to prop up Nichols, but not wanting to touch a dead body is hardly suspicious. John Reeves did not touch Tabram's body. John Davis did not Chapman's body. The police questioned 28 people who had gone into Dutfield's yard. Edward Spooner appears to have been the only one that touched Stride's body. Thomas Bowyer did not touch Kelly's body.

Robert Paul testified that he pulled Nichols clothes down to try to cover her. I pointed this out at least once before. It was not a coincidence - Robert Paul said he did it.

Lechemre did disagree with PC Mizen. That's not a coincidence, let alone proof of guilt.

Why do you keep claiming Paul did not see Lechmere? Paul testified that he saw Lechmere in front of himself. This has been pointed out to you before.

Part of one of the Torso victims was left on a street where Lechmare and many other people had lived. The Torso Killer dropped bodies along a twenty mile stretch of the Thames, the idea that he'd drop one a block from a place he used to live makes no sense at all. Most importantly, Lechmere was at work when the Pinchin Street Torso was deposited, so he could not have done it.

[MrBarnett]

Charles Lechmere goes from a red hot suspect to an icy cold one when Annie Chapman is killed while Lechmere was at work and had an alibi. Ditto for the Pinchin Street Torso, he was at work and would have had an alibi.

You have no idea what Lechmere’s shift patterns were.

[MrBarnett]

To get from Stride's murder site to 23 Pinchin Street, you have to walk south on Berner Street past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Streets until you reach Ellen Street. Then you walk west to Philip Street, then south past Maryann and Severne Streets to Pinchin Street and then west to 23 Pinchin Street.

That is not a short distance on foot. That is quite a bit more than the "a lame stone´s throw away" that Fisherman claimed.

While it is true that Charles Lechemere could have taken Berner Street to get to his mother's it is not a likely choice as it angles against him. Christian Street south to Pinchin and then west to Pinchin Street would be shorter. So would Christian south to Ellen Street, Ellen west to Stutfield Street, Stutfield south to Pinchin, and then west to 23 Pinchin. Or several other routes.

So far no evidence had been provided that Lechmere visited his mother at 2am on that day, let alone that he went there by way of Berner Street.



This did not happen in the evening. Charles Lechmere normally left for work around 3:20 to 3:30am. To reach Berner Street in time to murder Elizabeth Stride, Charles Lechmere would have had to have left home at about 12:20 am, maybe earlier. Getting up three hours early on your day off is extremely odd behavior. If Lechmere had left home at 12:20am and walked directly to his mother's, he would have reached there at 12:45 to 12:50am. Nobody goes to visit their mother at that time of night unless it's an emergency and every minute late would be noted by his mother.

But if Lechmere was the Ripper, he would be a lot more than a couple minutes late. Catherine Eddowes was murdered around 1:40 am in Mitre Square. Getting from Mitre Square to Goulston Street to drop the apron and then from Goulston Street to 23 Pinchin Street would take 20 to 25 minutes, getting Lechmere to his mother's at 2am at the very earliest, roughly an hour-and-a-half late. Any mother who actually wanted to see her son at that ungodly hour of the morning would have been worried frantic. Lechmere would have to come up with a very good explanation for the massive delay, especially since during his delay two more women were butchered by the Ripper.

And we're supposed to believe that Charles Lechmere was a iceblooded, calculating psychopath that, when interrupted after killing Polly Nichols, he bluffed his way past Robert Paul and Constable Mizen, and go directly to work to avoid suspicion. Yet we're also expected to believe that when interrupted killing Elizabeth Stride, Lechmere was so compelled to kill again that he would spend an hour or more killing another person, dropping an apron in Goulston Street, and arrive at his destination an hour-and-a-half late with no reasonable excuse for the delay.

Can we first establish the significance of 23, Pinchin Street in 1888?

[Fiver]

In short, somebody who makes for a red hot suspect. But why care about that when we can dream up people rounding the schoolhouse, blood-dripping knife in hand? Surely, a man who has a legit reason to be in place cannot possibly be a killer? That would be soooo unfair!!

Charles Lechmere goes from a red hot suspect to an icy cold one when Annie Chapman is killed while Lechmere was at work and had an alibi. Ditto for the Pinchin Street Torso, he was at work and would have had an alibi.

[Fiver]

Obviously what Christer meant by a ‘lame stone’s throw away’ was a short distance. Berner Street was a short distance from Ma Lechmere’s house at the time and could easily have been on the route Lechmere used to get there.

To get from Stride's murder site to 23 Pinchin Street, you have to walk south on Berner Street past Fairclough, Boyd, and Everard Streets until you reach Ellen Street. Then you walk west to Philip Street, then south past Maryann and Severne Streets to Pinchin Street and then west to 23 Pinchin Street.

That is not a short distance on foot. That is quite a bit more than the "a lame stone´s throw away" that Fisherman claimed.

While it is true that Charles Lechemere could have taken Berner Street to get to his mother's it is not a likely choice as it angles against him. Christian Street south to Pinchin and then west to Pinchin Street would be shorter. So would Christian south to Ellen Street, Ellen west to Stutfield Street, Stutfield south to Pinchin, and then west to 23 Pinchin. Or several other routes.

So far no evidence had been provided that Lechmere visited his mother at 2am on that day, let alone that he went there by way of Berner Street.

If you tell your wife and kids, ‘I’m off to see my mum for the evening’ and return several hours later, how on earth would they know what time you arrived/left your mother’s house?

This did not happen in the evening. Charles Lechmere normally left for work around 3:20 to 3:30am. To reach Berner Street in time to murder Elizabeth Stride, Charles Lechmere would have had to have left home at about 12:20 am, maybe earlier. Getting up three hours early on your day off is extremely odd behavior. If Lechmere had left home at 12:20am and walked directly to his mother's, he would have reached there at 12:45 to 12:50am. Nobody goes to visit their mother at that time of night unless it's an emergency and every minute late would be noted by his mother.

But if Lechmere was the Ripper, he would be a lot more than a couple minutes late. Catherine Eddowes was murdered around 1:40 am in Mitre Square. Getting from Mitre Square to Goulston Street to drop the apron and then from Goulston Street to 23 Pinchin Street would take 20 to 25 minutes, getting Lechmere to his mother's at 2am at the very earliest, roughly an hour-and-a-half late. Any mother who actually wanted to see her son at that ungodly hour of the morning would have been worried frantic. Lechmere would have to come up with a very good explanation for the massive delay, especially since during his delay two more women were butchered by the Ripper.

And we're supposed to believe that Charles Lechmere was a iceblooded, calculating psychopath that, when interrupted after killing Polly Nichols, he bluffed his way past Robert Paul and Constable Mizen, and go directly to work to avoid suspicion. Yet we're also expected to believe that when interrupted killing Elizabeth Stride, Lechmere was so compelled to kill again that he would spend an hour or more killing another person, dropping an apron in Goulston Street, and arrive at his destination an hour-and-a-half late with no reasonable excuse for the delay.

[Abby Normal]

Well, the idea that Lechmere couldn't have been there on a Saturday Night is, of course, nonsense; on the other hand, I don't see how a 1 a.m. murder preceding his day off 'fits nicely.'

If he's slogging to work at 3.30 a.m. for years on end, then he's most likely in a routine of hitting the hay by 8 or 9 in the evening. (I speak from some experience on this score). And he's made a rather long day of it if he's worked the Saturday shift and is still roaming the streets at 1 a.m. later that night. Working men (and women) are famous for letting their hair down on Saturday night, but if he's a 3.30 a.m. riser with a large family, I'm thinking 11 p.m. would hit him like a brick wall. Nor is the idea of Lechmere getting up 2 1/2 hours early on his day off, in order to trawl the streets, after a six day work week, all that convincing. Even a murderer gets knackered.

The American murderer David Berkowitz shot one of his victims at 3 a.m. on his day off (Sunday), but he worked the late-shift at the post office and was thus a 'night owl,' so the late/early hour of the crimes fit Berkowitz's normal work hours. Lechmere's schedule appears to have been the exact opposite of Berkowitz's.

Lechmere doesn't have an alibi. I'll give him that, but I fail to see how the timings of the murders strengthens the case against him.

hi rj
all that makes sense too. my take on it- he heads to mums after work for a visit then heads out after that. maybe he hits the pubs and or starts the hunt. he dosnt havent to worry about getting to work so theres no rush. he can take his time-which he does with stride but that dosnt work out so its then eddowes and the GSG/apron events. and im sure the thrill of the hunt and all the craziness that night would keep the adrenaline going. to me it strengthens the case case against him insomuch as its a logical series of events and timings with his known factual locations of visit. IMHO it fits nicely. very. better than most suspects anyway.