Lechmere and Chapman

[Dupin]

Do beg pard.
It is a photo in
<https://unsolvedwhitechapel.wordpress.com/category/mary-ann-nichols/>
(hope that works - may need to copy and paste)
It is about Polly and casts doubt on a certain Mr Lechmere's evidence. Wonder who wrote it?
Cheers

[Herlock Sholmes]

So is it likely that he’d have planned to kill when setting out on his route? I can’t see it as he couldn’t have been confident of finding a prostitute at that time of the morning and he’d have only had very limited time as customers would have undoubtedly have been expecting deliveries. Also it would have meant leaving a marked Pickfords cart somewhere near to the murder scene (id suggest even closer if it’s suggested that he killed on the spur of the moment.) It’s hard to see him leaving an unattended cart loaded with meat in an area where thieving was taught to degree level.

The pro-Lechmere viewpoint of course would be that Annie was killed much earlier; say 3 am for eg.

[The Baron]

WRT Pickfords, the link
<https://unsolvedwhitechapel.files.wordpress.com/2014/10/a-info5.jpg?w=908>
shows an 1888 (allegedly) pickfords cart clearly labelled along its side and front.

Hello Dupin and thank you for the link.

It is perfectly working, and one can see Pickfords name clearly on the cart.



The Baron

[Joshua Rogan]

DrStrange posted the same pic in this thread, post #2

https://forum.casebook.org/forum/ripper-discussions/suspects/lechmere-cross-charles/9889-what-did-a-carman-look-like

He said it was from circa 1905

[Dupin]

I think the allegation was that he was on his way to work so didn't have a cart yet; but that we only have his word that he left ten minutes later than usual.

Now I fear and tremble to raise a cadet's head above the Lechmere parapet without a tin hat, but my take is that Mr L/C would have been a person of considerable interest to the police, especially after his run-in with one of their own, Mizen. When the next murder arrived, would the police at the time have sought him out to check his whereabouts, or would that have been considered harassment? (If he had a verified alibi that would have ruled him out, but since there are no records it is all speculation.)

[Dupin]

Woops, sorry Joshua, I came in after Pearl and Dean.
I would be surprised if Pickfords had not always splashed its name.
In 1882 it was famous enough to be mentioned in Gilbert and Sullivan's Iolanthe: "he's a parliamentary Pickfords - he carries everything".

[Joshua Rogan]

Woops, sorry Joshua, I came in after Pearl and Dean.
I would be surprised if Pickfords had not always splashed its name.
In 1882 it was famous enough to be mentioned in Gilbert and Sullivan's Iolanthe: "he's a parliamentary Pickfords - he carries everything".

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound as if I was having a go, just posting for those who couldn't get the link to work, and noticed the date discrepancy.
I don't suppose it would have looked too different in 1888.

[DJA]

Photo from Dupin's link.
Possibly 1905.

Edit. Beaten to it.

[Abby Normal]

So is it likely that he’d have planned to kill when setting out on his route? I can’t see it as he couldn’t have been confident of finding a prostitute at that time of the morning and he’d have only had very limited time as customers would have undoubtedly have been expecting deliveries. Also it would have meant leaving a marked Pickfords cart somewhere near to the murder scene (id suggest even closer if it’s suggested that he killed on the spur of the moment.) It’s hard to see him leaving an unattended cart loaded with meat in an area where thieving was taught to degree level.

The pro-Lechmere viewpoint of course would be that Annie was killed much earlier; say 3 am for eg.

hi herlock
as you know i consider lech a valid suspect and if he was the ripper, he may have killed her then, but of course would mean the dr was off a little bit on tod or perhaps lech was late that day or maybe off?

[Fisherman]

The interesting thing about having a malfunctioning Casebook partition is that you canīt see new threads popping up. Now that it works again, I find this Lechmere/Chapman thread having seen the light of day, and I suppose I should say something about it.

Phillips money was oina time earlier than 4.30. Reasonably, he was not suggesting 4.29, so it seems he was in favour of a time that would put Chaoman much on par with the others. And thus, he would of course clear the way for suggesting another strike en route to work on account of Charles Lechmere.

Lechmere was a carter, carters travelled all over London, and there is. no reason why he could not have been in Hanbury Street at 5.30, if that was required. Personally, and as I have made clear on the other threads, I regard it as a given that Long and Cadosch were not telling correct stories. To my mind, Chapman died in the early morning hours, in darkness just like the others, and much as I realize that will earn me a rumour of wanting to fit the evidence to Lechmere being the killer. Just keep in mind that I donīt have to - carters went all over London at all hours of the day. To me, it is simply the only logical bid, when we have a medico who have checked four parameters and found them all leading up to a TOD at around 3-4 AM.

DJA tells you that I am not being able to process his ideas about Chapman having had an extremely low body temperature as she died. Actually, I have processed it and I have told DJA that it would be nice if he could explain (away) all the other parameters too, for example why it was that Chapman had a commencing rigor in cold conditions and with a cold body, if she had only just fallen to the ground. So far, it has earned me no answer but for a pointing out that I am manipulative and ... whatever - I tend to forget, since I see so much of that stuff, and very little self criticism from the ones it originates with.

To me, Annie Chapman was not seen for four morning hours for the simple reason that she had been chatted up by Charles Lechmere on bis route to work, gone to the backyard with him and been killed by him. And if Harry tells you that I canīt prove it, he is very correct.

[Ozzy]

Links for Dupin's URLs

https://unsolvedwhitechapel.files.wo...nfo5.jpg?w=908

https://unsolvedwhitechapel.wordpres...ry-ann-nichols

[Abby Normal]

The interesting thing about having a malfunctioning Casebook partition is that you canīt see new threads popping up. Now that it works again, I find this Lechmere/Chapman thread having seen the light of day, and I suppose I should say something about it.

Phillips money was oina time earlier than 4.30. Reasonably, he was not suggesting 4.29, so it seems he was in favour of a time that would put Chaoman much on par with the others. And thus, he would of course clear the way for suggesting another strike en route to work on account of Charles Lechmere.

Lechmere was a carter, carters travelled all over London, and there is. no reason why he could not have been in Hanbury Street at 5.30, if that was required. Personally, and as I have made clear on the other threads, I regard it as a given that Long and Cadosch were not telling correct stories. To my mind, Chapman died in the early morning hours, in darkness just like the others, and much as I realize that will earn me a rumour of wanting to fit the evidence to Lechmere being the killer. Just keep in mind that I donīt have to - carters went all over London at all hours of the day. To me, it is simply the only logical bid, when we have a medico who have checked four parameters and found them all leading up to a TOD at around 3-4 AM.

DJA tells you that I am not being able to process his ideas about Chapman having had an extremely low body temperature as she died. Actually, I have processed it and I have told DJA that it would be nice if he could explain (away) all the other parameters too, for example why it was that Chapman had a commencing rigor in cold conditions and with a cold body, if she had only just fallen to the ground. So far, it has earned me no answer but for a pointing out that I am manipulative and ... whatever - I tend to forget, since I see so much of that stuff, and very little self criticism from the ones it originates with.

To me, Annie Chapman was not seen for four morning hours for the simple reason that she had been chatted up by Charles Lechmere on bis route to work, gone to the backyard with him and been killed by him. And if Harry tells you that I canīt prove it, he is very correct.

hey fish
im not good with the whole walking distance time thing so assuming lech usually left for work around 3:15 (correct me if im wrong on this but we know he left around 3:20 or 3:30 on the day of nichols murder and he said he was running late so assuming he usually left by 3:15ish to be to work at four) what time would that place him near hanbury street?

[Fisherman]

hey fish
im not good with the whole walking distance time thing so assuming lech usually left for work around 3:15 (correct me if im wrong on this but we know he left around 3:20 or 3:30 on the day of nichols murder and he said he was running late so assuming he usually left by 3:15ish to be to work at four) what time would that place him near hanbury street?

He probably normally left home at around 3.20, but claimed he was late on the day of the murder, having left at 3.30 instead. If he left at 3.20 in normal cases as I believe, he would get to the murder spot at around 3.27 and from there he had a walk of few minutes only up to the junction Bakers Row/Hanbury Street, where he would be at around 3.30, roughly. That would mean that he would perhaps have passed 29 Hanbury street at around 3.40-ish or shortly before that time.

[Fisherman]

Am I the only one having problems with the site not listing the latest posts as they tick in? At the tiop of the list of "Most recent posts" on the main page, I have a post made by tangy at 4.59 PM yesterday, marked as having been posted 25 minutes ago. Any posts after that time are not presented.

[harry]

Why you include me Fisherman in your post 25 I cannot imagine,and I need tell no one anything of the difficulty you have in proving any of your claims,your self confessed failure says it all.