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  • What did a carman look like?

    I don't know if this has been brought up before, but what did a carman look like when walking to work?
    These are the witness reported descriptions of people on the streets the morning of Polly's murder:

    PC Neil:
    The Daily Telegraph: The first to arrive on the scene after I had discovered the body were two men who work at a slaughterhouse opposite.
    The Daily News: There was a slaughterhouse near, in Winthorpe (sic) street, and two men who had been working there all night, and whom he knew well, came into Buck's row while the body was being put on the ambulance. They made no observation. With the exception of a man who had passed down Buck's row while the doctor was present, they were the first of the general public to arrive.

    PC Thain:
    The Times: On his return with the doctor, Neil and two workmen were standing by the body. He did not know the workmen.
    The Daily Telegraph: There were one or two working men going down Brady-street shortly before I was called by Neale[Neill]

    PC Mizen:
    The Times: a man passing said "You are wanted in Baker's-row."....When Cross spoke to witness he was accompanied by another man, and both of them afterwards went down Hanbury-street
    The Daily Telegraph: when a carman who passed in company with another man
    The Daily News: when a carman passing by in company with another man said, "You are wanted in Buck's row by a policeman; a woman is lying there."
    The Morning Advertiser: when someone who was passing said, "You're wanted down there" (pointing to Buck's row). The man appeared to be a carman...... The Coroner - There was another man in company with Cross? The Witness - Yes. I think he was also a carman.
    The Echo: when a man, who looked like a carman, said, "You are wanted in Buck's-row." Witness now knew the man to be named Cross, and he was a carman.
    The Star: A man passing said to him, "You're wanted round in Buck's-row." That man was Carman Cross (who came into the Court-room in a coarse sacking apron), and he had come from Buck's-row..... Cross, when he spoke to witness about the affair, was accompanied by another man.

    Cross:
    The Times: He appeared to be a carman, and was a stranger to the witness.
    The Daily News: He appeared to be a carman, but the witness had never seen him before.
    The Echo: The other man then said, "I believe she is dead." I don't know who this man was; he was a stranger, but appeared to me to be a carman.
    The Star: The other man left witness at the corner of Hanbury-street, and went down Corbett's-court. He was a stranger to witness, but appeared to be a carman.

    Paul didn't mention that Cross looked like, or was, a carman in either his newspaper statement or witness statement.

    So the question being, of these reported witness statements, did they actually say "he looked like a carman", or was this the reporter or editor making the connection? Or was it because they had read Paul's statement in the newspaper where he was described as a carman? Notice in The Times account, Mizen didn't mention a carman, but in the Morning Advertiser account the Coroner asks the question about the other man and Mizen replies "he looked like a carman"???

    Cross seems to say Paul looked like a carman, but how would a carman walking to work look different from any other workingman? eg a butcher?, a baker? a candle stickmaker?

    Cheers
    Bill

    I found the attached image of a Victorian/Edwardian carman. Was that the sort of "coarse sacking apron" that Cross wore to the inquest?
    Attached Files

  • #2
    Hello Billiou,

    This a Pickfords carman, circa 1905, so yes, it is probably how Xmere and (maybe) Paul would have looked.
    Attached Files
    Last edited by drstrange169; 03-20-2016, 06:21 PM.
    dustymiller
    aka drstrange

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Billiou View Post

      I found the attached image of a Victorian/Edwardian carman. Was that the sort of "coarse sacking apron" that Cross wore to the inquest?
      Looks right to me.
      G U T

      There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by drstrange169 View Post
        Hello Billiou,

        This a Pickfords carman, circa 1905, so yes, it is probably how Xmere and (maybe) Paul would have looked.
        Yes, at work. What about going to work?

        Comment


        • #5
          Good question!
          Short answer, i don't know.
          My assumption, for what it's worth is, yes, because otherwise, without the cap and apron, there would be nothing for Mizen to identify someone as a carman.
          dustymiller
          aka drstrange

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Billiou View Post
            Yes, at work. What about going to work?
            Whilst I don't know for a fact, what I do know is that many of these "working poor" only had a couple of changes of clothes, so I strongly suspect that he wore to work, what he wore at work.
            G U T

            There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by GUT View Post
              Looks right to me.
              Looks profoundly different from anything seen at a subsequent Ripper crime scene. Of course, the hat is not unlike what a sailor might wear...

              Comment


              • #8
                https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...usant_1875.jpg

                Comment


                • #9
                  G U T

                  There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post
                    Looks profoundly different from anything seen at a subsequent Ripper crime scene. Of course, the hat is not unlike what a sailor might wear...
                    I meant it looked right for what a carman might wear, if it doesn't fit with other witness reports, well it means either the witnesses didn't see the killer or the kller wasn't dressed as a carman.
                    G U T

                    There are two ways to be fooled, one is to believe what isn't true, the other is to refuse to believe that which is true.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also the only photo of Xmere available to us, shows him sporting a full hipster beard.

                      If that beard was a lifetime one like mine, he may well have had it in 1888. That would definitely distance him from witness reports.
                      dustymiller
                      aka drstrange

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                      • #12
                        Those carmen are wearing peaked hats!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Damaso Marte View Post
                          Looks profoundly different from anything seen at a subsequent Ripper crime scene. Of course, the hat is not unlike what a sailor might wear...
                          Royal Navy didn't start wearing that kind of hat you mean until the 1920s. The sailors hat in this case would be sennit or felt and look like this pic. So they probably weren't wearing a Carmen uniform hat.
                          Last edited by Shaggyrand; 03-20-2016, 09:24 PM.
                          Iím often irrelevant. It confuses people.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by GUT View Post
                            Whilst I don't know for a fact, what I do know is that many of these "working poor" only had a couple of changes of clothes, so I strongly suspect that he wore to work, what he wore at work.
                            I would tend to agree, although whether or not they would wear the apron may be debatable. More likely you would "hang it up" at the end of the day? I do wonder why Cross, when he turned up at the inquest, would not have turned out more "presentable". Until recent times I believe it was the "right thing" to do to turn up in your Sunday best to Court was it not ie dust off the old suit and tie?

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Shaggyrand View Post
                              Royal Navy didn't start wearing that kind of hat you mean until the 1920s. The sailors hat in this case would be sennit or felt and look like this pic. So they probably weren't wearing a Carmen uniform hat.
                              I think "sailor" is meant to refer to any person who works on a ship ie mariner, not necessarily a member of the Royal Navy eg a merchantman?
                              Attached Files

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